Interview with Hugh Lunghi, 1/7/96
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(A bit of preliminary discussion,
not transcribed)
INT: ... Can you describe what the
evening celebrations were?
HL: Yes. Yes, we were told there would be fireworks, such a
wonderful firework display in the evening, so we made sure that we would be in Red Square in
the evening. In fact, we went there by car, we followed the acting chief of staff of our military
mission, who was with an American correspondent, with a car in front - we followed him, got
into Red Square; the cars couldn't move, we were blocked. There were all kinds of odd
things going on, among which was the tossing up into the air of a British prelate, the Dean of
Canterbury, "the red Dean", as he was known in Britain, whom we sort of rescued, or at least,
Colonel Brigman, our chief of staff, rescued him from the Russians. It was all very friendly,
of course, they were trying to be friendly to him. And then the fireworks started, and among them
was a tremendous portrait of full-length Stalin, which we hadn't seen before, actually. We had
seen firework displays in Moscow constantly, ever since... more or less since I arrived there,
because every big city that was captured, when the announcement was made in the evening, cities
and villages and territory captured, there was a salute; and depending on the size of the victory,
the size of the city or the town that was taken, so the salute would be increased. And this one was
the firework display to end all fireworks display. And people were very friendly to us, as they
had been in the morning, and there was cheering; it was a wonderful atmosphere, actually; and of
course, we were tired out at the end of the day, but tired and happy; everyone seemed very
happy.
INT: And there was an official parade,
the Victory Parade, which is the middle of June, and ... I know we have got film of that, so I
wondered if you could describe the reaction of people to the Nazi banners being flung down on
the steps of the Mausoleum.
HL: The Victory Parade was held, as far as I remember, about the 24th
of June, just about a month after Stalin had his banquet for his generals and marshals, where he
praised the Russian people - Russian, he kept putting the stress on "Russian". And a month after
that, there was a victory parade, a tremendous affair. Unfortunately it was raining that day, so we
got pretty well soaked. However, it was marvellous to see. There was a band, a huge band,
playing all kinds of marches, and the Soviet troops, the Russian troops, marching through Red
Square, about 20 abreast at one point; not so many tanks or vehicles, as far as I remember,
although they were included. And then, suddenly there was silence, and a tremendous drum-roll,
roll of drums, and a detachment of 200 Russians in dress uniform, Russian soldiers in dress
uniform - we were told it was 200 afterwards - came marching towards the Lenin Mausoleum
with what we saw were German standards, German banners and standards, these
red fl... red background, most of them, with a black cross in the middle, and of course white
picking out the swastika. Some of them were black with a white swastika, as far as I
remember - anyway, the insignia of the various German regiments. They marched up to Lenin's
Mausoleum, smartly turned right to face the Mausoleum, and flung these banners on to the steps
of the Mausoleum, where they lay spread out, and of course the rain came on them and they were
bedraggled, and it was a marvellous symbolic moment of the end of the Third Reich, these
bedraggled flags and swastikas. It was a very moving moment, actually. And then afterwards,
after the parade was over, we sort of went round to have a closer look at these banners, to try and
make out what they were and examine them, and there were Russians allowed to come forward
from the crowds, to come forward and look at them - this was quite a long time, possibly even an
hour or more afterwards, but we'd hung around. And an old woman said to me, "Well, that's
that..." They... they weren't exulting, they weren't... no sort of triumphalism: they were more sad;
it was for them a tragic occasion, and I think, as we all felt at that moment, that we were thinking
of the sacrifices that had been made. And this woman said, "Well, that's the end of that. What we
need now is a new beginning," and then shook our hands, which was a most moving moment,
actually.
INT: It was evidence of the ordinary
people's attitude.
HL: Yes, absolutely.
INT: Well, the last thing we have to
cover is Potsdam, where again you were interpreting. ... How were relations compared with...
Yalta was quite optimistic, although there were undertones, certainly about Eastern Europe... but
what was the general atmosphere of the relations between the leaders at the Potsdam
Conference?
HL: Well, I'd call the Potsdam Conference a bad-tempered conference,
because apart from the ceremonial occasions, it was really very bad-tempered. The plenary
sessions took place in Cecilienhof, this mock-Tudor building on the outskirts of Potsdam and a
few miles away from where we were quartered in Babelsberg, a wonderful suburb of Berlin, on
the lake - I think it was the Griebnitz - very comfortable quarters. It had not been bombed, so we
were really very well-off there. But then... we had very friendly encounters again with the
Russians, and even with our opposite numbers. It was the end of the war, and we sort of shook
hands with each other, and we met people who had been at the previous conferences, the security
people. And indeed, towards the end of the conference, when Churchill had actually already left,
General Ismay, who was Churchill's chief of staff, his link with the Imperial Chiefs of Staff, as
they were called, he conferred a knighthood on the NKVD general, KGB general - I don't think
this is general generally known - who had been responsible for our... the security of the
British delegation at all these conferences. And that general was Kruglov, and he later became
Minister of the Interior under Khrushchev, and there was a great row about him coming to
Britain, but that... that's going forward rather. General Kruglov - you could therefore
call him "Sir"... I've forgotten what his name was... Sir somebody Kruglov.
INT: But originally you said, apart
from that session, that it was bad-tempered. Why was it a bad-tempered
conference?
HL: It was bad-tempered - well, I personally felt this more or less on
my skin - because of the demands that were being made on the British and the Americans from
the Russians. There was haggling over the reparations; there were still
arguments about the occupation zones to a certain extent, although those had been more or less
settled by the foreign ministers beforehand; there was haggling over the disposition.
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