ATTACHMENT 15


Santa Fe Conversations.

Ref. Letter Langham to Friedell 21 May
	"   Friedell to Langham 2 June
	"   Verbal arrangments with McCannon on 4 June
     Conversations - Warren to Langham and Hempelman on week of June 4-9


Points under debate.

a) number of patients on which to use product
b) size of dose - whether any significance can be attached to maximal and 
minimal dose particularly when the excretion figures indicate that the is 
no significant relationship between the amount excreted and the size of 
the dose. The other point is - what can be considered as maximum and 
minimal dosages - if 5 micrograms is maximal what is minimal? According to 
Cole, this should be zero, according to the general Chicago figures this 
would be placed around 1 microgram. One comment is necessary to make and 
that 3 or 6 patients on each dose would give so few figures that it might 
make interpretation difficult.
c) significance of plus 4 and plus six product. Also the significance of 
the soluble and insoluble forms. Almost everyone will admit that all of 
the evidence points toward the complete and relatively prompt reduction 
of plus six to plus 4 after introduction into the body. Again, unlike T, 
the urinary differences in excretion between these two <unreadable word> 
is very little in animal experiments - in fact well within the limits of 
the method. It is also the opinion of the undersigned that there is no 
significant difference between the behavior of product combined with any 
one of a number of radicals such as nitrate, citrate and the like. The 
major difference exists only in dust studies where the factor of pulmonary 
absorption enters the picture. This will not be considered in the proposed 
human experiments.
d) the factors related to absorption of product from the skin should be 
undertaken. It seems likely that a mixture of Pu238 and 239 should be 
used in such a study to facilitate ease in detection in urine and stools.
e) a factor about the urinary excretion in the human which should be 
commented upon is the relative tremendous difference between the 
urinary and stool excretion. The former is quite high especially during 
the first 2-4 days in both the Chicago and C-R patients. Stool excretions 
range as high as only 7-10 counts per 24 hours. This means that the stool 
is of no value as a monitoring aid. This fact was also observed in the 
Berkely patient injected with 238 and 239.
f) if possible distribution of product in tissues of the human should be 
carried out on moribund patients and patients dying from malignancy 
particularly Hogkins and leukemia in young people.

Proposed Experimental Program.
injection of 0.06 micrograms/kg into [ILLEGIBLE] patients whose blood and
urinary status is within normal limits for the age.
follow up of blood, urine and stool levels for periods up to leveling 
state which occurs within 6 weeks to 2 months (previously observe in 
other patients).
biopsies of bone if possible.
tissue distributions in moribund patients etc.
skin excretions with 238-239

Proposed immediate discussion.
determine status of Dr. McCann's program.
contact Heppelman and perhaps arrange appointment for meeting to 
work program out. It might be well to start McCann's program out on some 
other substance and then inject product when arrangements are completed.
I doubt whether the Chicago group could add significantly to the planning 
of the program. They might be able to do urinary  coproporphryes an
the like.