DISCLAIMER This report Was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of tne United States Government Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof, nor any of their employees, makes any warranty. express or Implied. or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product or process disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe privately owned rights. Reference herein to any specific commercial product. process or service by trade name, trademark, manufacturer, or otherwise does not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof. The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of the United States Government or any agency thereof. ISBN 0-87O79-59O-2 ISBN 0-87O79-591-O (microfiche) Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 88-600371 Available as DE88013791 (DOE/RL/01830-T59) from National Technical Information Service 5285 Port Royal Road Springfield. Virginia 22161 Price: $67.50 Microfiche E15 Published by the Office of Scientific and Technical Information October 1988 "1988 Battelle Memorial Institute Appendix A 1869 Appendix A The Interviews A very important feature in the preparation of this book was the opportunity to meet personally with over one hundred of the investigators who played a part in the history described. Some are "patriarch" whose work forms the basis for entire areas of the research described, who have (or had) been active for fifty years or more, and who did much to shape the entire field we are calling radioisotope toxicology. Others are key figures of the second generation who shaped the major programs of the "Golden Era" described in chapter 8. Still others are specialists in certain aspects whose contributions made possible the exploration of avenues that might otherwise have remained undeveloped. A few are relatively recent arrivals, who have a grasp nonetheless of the history behind them and who have assumed responsibilIty for the future. Unfortunately, a few of those interviewed in the early phases of preparation are no longer with us. Perhaps we need no more forceful indication that it was high time this history was written. Despite the effort expended on interviews, this book cannot and should not be termed an oral history. The results of the conversations were always used to confirm and extend, or to add anecdotal flavor to the unfolding written stories of the research programs. The reports and published literature formed the basic structure that the interview results then fleshed out and made more personal. frequently more specific, even more correct. Thus, the book is a combination of oral history and conventional digging into the literature. Both were enjoyable and revealing, but the personal interviews were especially stimulating and pleasant. Unfortunately, as the project grew in size. it was necessary to eschew information gained in the interviews, as it was necessary to discard parts of the written record. It is hoped that some other opportunity will be presented to air these items, particularly anecdotal material. The author is most grateful to the many friends and colleagues who extended time and talent, sometimes more than once. and sometimes for many hours at a stretch, to recall details of what was done, how it was done, and the milieu existing at the time it was done. Some of the interviews lasted less than an hour; a few required the better part of two days. Obviously, they concentrated on each individual's personal research interests, but sometimes much broader topics occupied the stage. Sometimes those interviewed had been asked to read, 1870 The Interviews prior to the interview, a draft copy of a chapter pertinent to their experience. The discussion was then built upon a critique of something already written. Most often, however, the interview was an occasion for sheer recall and commentary. A majority of the interviews were taped and later transcribed. Both are being readied for deposit in a suitable repository after they have been edited. Un fortunately, in the early efforts, the author used tapes that did not hold up well, and the record of those interviews must be limited to notes. In the listing that follows, the interviews are arranged alphabetically by last name. Also, the individual's base of operations and the position or field of operation at the time of the interview or prior to retirement are given. For the reader's convenience, there is also an indication of the principal subject matter discussed. Most of the discussions took place at the Interviewee's home base, and sometimes they became a group affair as colleagues joined in. Other interviews took place at national scientific meetings, from which the individual was willIng to break away for an hour or so. Still others were at the site of the individual's place of retirement. There is no doubt that these person-to-person encounters contributed importantly to the text. Sometimes their contribution is obvious and direct and can be referenced formally. In other cases, indeed the majority, the interview contributed primarily to the general flavor of what was going on, or it confirmed or modified the written records. These could seldom be cited directly. Hence, the need for this Appendix. Financial support for travel and other expenses came from the U.S. Department of Energy through Pacific Northwest Laboratory and is acknowledged with gratitude. Note: Principal subject matter follows each entry. NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Agnew, Harold, President GA Technology, La Jolla, CA formerly Director of Los (formerly General Atomics) Alamos Scientific Laboratory Los Alamos Date: May 2, 1960 Work at Met Lab and at Los Alamos during World War II, also early postwar research. Alpen, Edward University of California Director of Donner Laboratory at Berkeley Date: May 15, 1976 plus discussion in April 1984 Naval Radiological Defense Laboratory. Anders, Roger AEC, ERDA, DOE Headquarters Archivist Germantown March 16, 1979 History of AEC. Andrews, Howard L University of Rochester Professor of Radiation Biology & Biophysics USPHS National InstItutes of Health (retired in Jamestown. R.I.) Date: September 1980, and many letters since Instrumentation, weapons tests, general. Appendix A 1871 NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Auerbach, Stanley Oak Ridge National Laboratory Director, Radioecology Div. Growth and development of radioecology program at Oak Ridge. Date: April 19, 1979 Auxier, John, Head. Oak Ridge National Laboratory Health and Safety Research Oak Ridge programs ApplIed Science Laboratories, Oak Ridge Date: April 13, 1979 Bair, William J., Manager, Battelle, Pacific Northwest Biomedical and Environmental Laboratories Research Program, Contract officer for this book. Manager, Life Sciences Center Date: June 12, 1979, plus numerous consultations All aspects, particular emphasis on inhalation toxicology. Bale, William F., Professor University of Rochester of Radiation Biology and Medical Center Biophysics. Georgia Tech (deceased) Date: November 5-6, 1979 Nuclear medicine, radioactive antibodies, research at Rochester during World War II, his work at Georgia Tech since "retirement." Ballou, John Battelle, Pacific Northwest Staff Scientist Laboratories Date: June 5, 1979 Research at Hanford and Battelle-Northwest. Baum, John Brookhaven National Laboratory Safety and Environmental Protection Division Date: September 17, 1982 Marshallese dosimetry. Bennett, Robert University of California Professor of Radiology Los Angeles, Medical Center Date: February 8, 1979, also 1981, and letters History of nuclear medicine and his research. Bernard, Robert Oak Ridge National Laboratory Staff Scientist Date: April 17, 1979 Uranium research. metabolic models. Bethard, William F. GA Technology, La Jolla, CA Staff Physician (formerly General Atomics) Date: July 17, 1978 His role at Chicago during the 1940%. Biomedical work at GA. Boecker, Bruce Inhalation Toxicology Research Assistant Director Institute, Albuquerque Date: September 26, 1981 Thorium, field tests, bioassay, metabolic models. Bond, Victor Brookhaven National Laboratory Director, Medical Division Date: September 16, 1982 Medical dosimetry, his experiences with the Marshallese, cellular aspects of nuclear medicine, cellular models. Bonham, Kelshaw University of Washington Professor in College of Fisheries (retired) Date: June 1, 1979 The University of Washington Fisheries program. Joint interview with Larson and Welander. 1872 The Interviews NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Brucer, Marshall Oak Ridge Institute of Medical Director Nuclear Studies (retired in Tucson, Arizona) Date: December 5, 1979 Tile Oak Ridge medical program, history of nuclear medicine, fallout. Brues, Austin Argonne National Scientific Staff, Institute for Laboratory Human Radiobiology, Former Director, Biology Division Date: September 8, 1978, October 8, 1981, and several follow-up discussions and letters Radium cases, program at Argonne, radium pharmacokinetics. Bruner, David, Staff, AEC, ERDA, DOE Division of Biology and Medicine and subsequent entities Date: November 14, 15, 1979 Entire program Special emphasis on inhalation problems Interviewed in Florida where he is now retired. Burr, William, Director AEC, ERDA, DOE Division of Biological and Headquarters Environmental Research Germantown Now at Oak Ridge Associated Universities and CARL Date: March 13, 1979, and subsequent follow-ups His view of the internal emitter program in all three agencies, especially AEC history. Bustad, Leo, Dean, Washington State College of Veterinary Medicine University formerly Director of University of California, AEC program Davis formerly Staff Scientist Hanford Biology Operations Date: September 25, 1981 and follow-up letters General history of the Hanford programs, particularly large animal work plus corollaries from his other experiences, sheep exposures at NTS. Carsten, Arland Brookhaven National Medical Department Laboratory Date: July 1982, September 1982 Tritium, nuclear medicine. Carter, Melvin, Professor, Georgia Institute of Nuclear Engineering Technology Formerly U.5. Public Health Service, several laboratories Date: April 10, 1979 and several subsequent letters The PHS program at Southwestern Radiological Health Laboratory, at NTS, and current work at Georgia Tech. Carter, Nicholas DOE Headquarters, Division of Biological and Germantown Environmental Research March 13, 1979 General Casarett, George University of Rochester Professor of Radiation Biology Medical Center and Biophysics and of Radiology Date: May 28, 1978, May 15, 1979 Pathology work in MED days, polonium experiments at Rochester, general. Appendix A 1873 NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Claus, Walter AEC and ERDA Special Assistant, Division of Headquarters Biology and Medicine Germantown Date: November 16, 1979 and several subsequent visits All aspects of program, especially the large animal experiments. Interviewed in Florida where he is now retired. Cloutier, Roger Oak Ridge Institute ofJuly Scientist, Medical Division Nuclear Studies Date: July 12, 1979 Dosimetry, MIRD, nuclear medicine, epidemiology. Cohn, Stanton Brookhaven National Medical Department Laboratory Date: September 16, 1982 NRDL. Marshallese, current work at Brookhaven in whole-body counting and problems of bone. Collins, Donald Don L. Collins and Associates, President Glendale, CA Date: October 13, 1978 Instrumentation experience in MED and weapons tests. Cowan, Frederick Brookhaven National Laboratory Director, Health Physics (retired) Date: July 10, 1979, April 1984 WASH 740, BNL research, both health physics and environmental. Interviewed at scientific meeting and at his home in Florida Cronkite, Eugene Brookhaven National Laboratory Medical Department Date: September 15, 1982 Marshallese, NRDL. nuclear medicine. Cross, Fredrick Battelle, Pacific Scientist Northwest Laboratories Date: June 4, 1979, and several subsequent conversations and letters Radon and uranium miners, animal work with radon. Joint interview with Ray Palmer. Deal, Joe DOE Headquarters Germantown Date: March 16, 1979, March 31, 1980 Fallout problems. Donaldson, Lauren University of Washington Professor, School of Fisheries Date: May 31, 1979, October 7, 1983 Fisheries program at University of Washington, Pacific studies, marine ecology. Dounce, Alexander University of Rochester Professor of Biochemistry Medical Center (emeritus) Date: June 19, 1978 Uranium work during MED days. Drew, Robert Brookhaven National Laboratory Inhalation Facility Date : September 15, 1982 Inhalation toxicology. Durbin, Patricia, Scientist, University of California, Lawrence Radiation Laboratory Berkeley Date: October 31, 1979, October 1980 and subsequent letters MED work at Berkeley with J. Hamilton, laboratory research on actinides, bone, uranium, standards. First interview in San Diego, second at Berkeley. 1874 The Interviews Position Institution Eisenbud Merril New York University Professor, Institute of Environmental Medicine Now at Chapel Hill, NC Date: July 9, 1979, and subsequent discussions Work of HASL, fallout, Sterling Forest, Brazil, work at NYU. Evans, Robley Massachusetts Institute Professor of Physics of Technology (retired) Date: April 16, 1978, and several subsequent letters Radium story, radon and uranium miners' standards. Also the Institute for Human Radiobiology at Argonne. Interviews at Scottsdale, Arizona, where Dr. Evans has retired Facer. Gordon U.S. Department of Energy Date: April 7, 1980 Formerly classified literature. Fairchild, Ralph, Brookhaven National and Sam Packer Laboratory Date: September 6, 1982 New developments in nuclear medicine. Feldman, Isaac University of Rochester Professor of Radiation Biology Medical Center and Biophysics Date: June 6, 1978 Uranium and polonium chemistry. Fink, Kay University of Administration California Date: February 8, 1979 Los Angeles The polonium experiments at Rochester during World War II FinkeL Asher American Medical Occupational Medicine Association (retired) Formerly Argonne National Laboratory Date: October 9, 1981 and subsequent letters The Argonne radium studies. chapter critiques. Finkel, Miriam Argonne National Biology Division Laboratory (retired) Dates: September 6, 1989, October 9, 1981 and subsequent letters. The Met Lab experiments on fission products and actinides. Postwar long-term experiments. Ford, Mary Oak Ridge National Laboratory Date: April 17, 1979 Internal emitter dosimetry. Foreman, Harry, Professor University of Minnesota Date: 1978 Therapy for deposited radionuclides. Interview in San Diego Foster, Richard Battelle, Pacific Environmental Sciences Northwest Laboratories June 11, 1979 Very broad. Early work at University of Washington and Hanford, especially UNREADABLE biology. Pacific tests, whole-body counts, general environmental studies. Friedell, Hymer Western Reserve Professor of Radiology University (retired) Dates: May 15, 1978, May 27, 1981 His book on history of Manhattan Project, old reports, work at WRU. Appendix A 1875 NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Goldman, Marvin University of Director, Laboratory for Energy California, Related Health Research Davis Dates: December 5, May 1983, and several informal follow-ups General, emphasis on bone and experience at tests program at Laboratory, Chernobyl. Hacker, Bart Reynolds Electric and Author of book in preparation Engineering Co., Las Vegas on radiation protection at the weapons tests Date: September 18, 1979 His book. Interview in San Diego. Hackett, P. L. and Battelle, Pacific B. J. McClanahan Northwest Laboratories Date: June 5, 1979 Their Programs Haggerty, James American Red Cross Washington Headquarters Date: April 1978 Formerly AEC Radium chapter. Joint interview with C.W. Shilling and W. Lotz in Washington, June 1978 Hansard, Sam Cooperative Animal Research Laboratory Oak Ridge (formerly UT-AEC Experimental Date: April 18, 1979 farm) History of the UT-AEC farm, and CARL programs. Hasterlik, Robert La Jolla Cancer Research Foundation, La Jolla, CA Date: April 28, 1980 Formerly Argonne The Argonne radium studies. Hempelmann, Louis University of Rochester Professor of Experimental Medical Center Radiobiology (retired) Dates: June 6, 1978, September 1981 The radium cases. The Los Alamos plutonium workers. Hewlett, Richard AEC,ERDA, and DOE Historian (retired) Headquarters, Date: March 15, 1979 Washington Pertinent history of AEC Hodge, Harold University of Rochester Professor of Pharmacology Medical Center and Toxicology (retired) University of California San Francisco Dates: October 25, 1980, and subsequent visits in California Uranium research and inhalation toxicology, chapter reviews. Holaday, Duncan U.S. Public Health (retiredService Date: July 9, 1979 Uranium miner saga. 1876 The Interviews NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Hull, Andrew Brookhaven National Safety and Environmental Laboratory Protection Division Date: September 17, 1982 Radiation protection, environment studies. Hursh, John University of Rochester Professor of Radiation Biology Medical Center and Biophysics (emeritus) Date: May 31, 1978 Broad review of instrumentation, radium, polonium, and radon research. Jee, Webster University of Utah Professor, Radiobiology Program Date: January 18, 1980 Utah program, fallout, bone. Jordan, Harry Los Alamos National Date: September 22, 1981 Laboratory Work at NTS, particularly project 56 and other plutonium safety tests. Kathren, Ronald Battelle, Pacific Northwest Laboratories Date: June 5, 1979 and many subsequent discussions Historians' views and experiences. Kornberg, Harry Bonneville Power Manager Administration (deceased) and EPRI Formerly Hanford Biology Division Date: September, 2, 1982 with subsequent letters History of the Hanford biology effort and his experiences. General consideration of fallout and related problems, work with tritium. Kreager, William U.S. Nuclear Regulatory (retired) Commission Date: December 6, 1979 NRDI Larson, Kermit Damson Moore, Date : June 1, 1079 Seattle, WA UCLA work at NTS, Joint Interview with Welander and Bonham Lessard, Edward Brookhaven National Safety and Environmental Laboratory Protection Division Date: September 17, 1982 Dosimetry of Marshallese. Joint interview with Charles Meinhold part of the time. Lotz, William Electric Power Research Institute branch in Washington Formerly AEC Division of Biology and Date March 15, 1979 Medicine Inhalation Toxicology Programs of AEC. Also joint interview with Drs. Shilling and Haggerty, June 1978 Marks, Sidney Battelle Pacific Associate Manager, Biomedical Northwest Laboratories and Environmental Research (retired) Date: June 11, 1979 Broad review. Mays, Charles University Utah Professor, Radiation Biology Program Date: January 18, 1980 Therapy for deposited radionuclides, the Utah experiments, Thorotrast. Appendix A 1877 NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION McClellan, Roger Inhalation Toxicology Director Research Institute Lovelace Foundation Albuquerque Date: September 26, 1981 and correspondence His experiences at Hanford, development of the Lovelace program, general. McGrew, Thomas U.S. Department of Date: April 4, 1980 Energy Environmental programs. Meinhold, Charles Brookhaven National Head, Safety and Environmental Laboratory Protection Division Date: September 17, 1982 Broad aspects of program, special consideration of Marshallese dosimetry. Joint interview with Edward Lessard part of the time. Miller, Leon University of Rochester Professor of Radiation Biology Medical Center and Biophysics and of Biochemistry (retired) Date: May 30, 1978 History of tracer Chemistry. Morgan, Karl, Professor Georgia Institute of (retired)Technology Formerly Head, Health Oak Ridge National Physics Division Laboratory Dates: April 20, 22, 1979 General, his career, radiation protection standards, research. Morrow, Paul University of Rochester Professor Radiation Biology Medical Center and Biophysics and of Pharmacology and Toxicology Date: June 1, 1978, and several subsequent discussions Analytical problems, work at Tennessee Eastman Corporation, industrial hygiene, inhalation toxicology and physiology. Myers, William Ohio State University Professor of Radiology Date: June 5, 1981 History of nuclear medicine. Neuman, William University of Rochester Professor of Radiation Biology Medical Center and Biophysics (deceased) Date: May 26, 1978 Uranium and bone, general plans, World War II work. Noonan, Thomas Comparative Animal ProfessorResearch Laboratory (retired) Oak Ridge (formerly UT-AEC Farm) Date: April 18, 1979 University of Rochester Medical Center History of laboratory, early work with radioisotopes at the Univ. of Rochester. Norris, William Argonne National (retired) Laboratory Date: September 7, 1978 Bone seekers. Norwood, W. D. "Dag" Hanford Works (General Medical Officer (retired) Electric Company) Battelle, Pacific Date: June 4, 1979 Northwest Laboratories Clinical management of radionuclide exposure cases, medical care of radiation workers. 1878 The Interviews NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Osterburg, Charles U.S. Department of Energy Date: April 7, 1980 Environmental programs. Palmer, Ray Battelle, Pacific Northwest Laboratories Date: June 4, 1979 Whole-body counting. Joint interview with F. Cross. Palmiter, Claire U.S. Environmental (retired)Protection Agency Dates: November 11, 1978, Formerly Federal April 2, 1985 Radiation Council Work of the Federal Radiation Council. First interview in San Diego. Park, James Battelle, Pacific Biology & Chemistry Dept. Northwest Laboratories Date: June 6, 1979 Experimental work with plutonium at Battelle. Parker, Herbert Hanford Works (General Former Manager and Staff Electric Company) Scientist Battelle, Pacific (deceased) Northwest Laboratories Date: June 4, 1979 History of entire field with emphasis on early years. Ragan, Harvey Battelle, Pacific Date: June 8, 1979 Northwest Laboratories Iodine experiment, fallout pathology. Reynolds, Orr American Physiological Executive Secretary Society Date: March 28, 1980 General, and role of Office of Naval Research, radium chapter. Richmond, Chester Oak Ridge National Associate Director Laboratory Date: April 19, 1979 His work at Los Alamos plus general overview. Robertson, James Mayo Clinic Date: May 15, 1978 Now DOE Nuclear medicine, dosimetry. Interview at Toronto, Ontario, Canada Rohwer, Paul Oak Ridge National Health and Safety Research Laboratory Division (now Head of Health Physics) Date: April 13, 1979, and subsequent correspondence and conferences Plowshare, Oak Ridge Environmental Program, assessment of former sites. Romney, "Van" University of California Professor Los Angeles Date: October 13, 1978, and subsequent visits The UCLA plant experiments and work at NTS. Ross, Donald DOE Headquarters Dates: March 16, 1979 Germantown March 31, 1980 Inhalation toxicology, industrial hygiene in AEC. Ross, Joseph University of (deceased) California Date:October 13, 1978 Los Angeles UCLA programs. NTS involvement, control of data. Appendix A 1879 NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Ross, Martha Bethesda, MD Date: April 7, 1980 Oral history. Rothstein, A. Hospital for Sick Date: May 17, 1978 Children Toronto, Ontario Rochester uranium work. Rundo, John Argonne National Date: October 15, 1981 Laboratory Earlier work at Harwell, thorium, polonium, plutonium, radium, instrumentation. Interview at Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. Russell, William Oak Ridge National Date: April 20, 1979 Laboratory Genetic studies with internal emitters. Joint interview with Dr. Comming. Sanders, Charles Battelle, Pacific Biology & Chemistry Dept. Northwest Laboratories Date: June 7, 1979 His work with actinides. Schulte, Harry Los Alamos Scientific Date: March 22, 1980 Laboratory Research at Los Alamos; bioassay, industrial hygiene. Interview in San Diego. Seaborg, Glenn University of Professor California, Berkeley Former Chairman U.S. Atomic Energy Date: October 22, 1980 Commission Chapters 6 and 7, history of actinides. Seymour, Allyn University of Professor Washington Dates: June 1, 1979, School of Fisheries October 7, 1983, and letters Aquatic biology programs, radioecology, Pacific and Alaskan tests, chapters 11-13. Shilling, Charles Underwater Medical Assoc. Executive Director Formerly Deputy Director, AEC Division of Biology and Medicine Dates: June 7, 1078, March 28, 1980 Office of Naval Research, radium chapter, general operation of AEC programs. Shoup, Sam Oak Ridge Operations (retired)Office AEC Date: April 10, 1979 Role of Oak Ridge Operations Office in internal emitter research. Puerto Rico. Sikov, Melvin Battelle, Pacific Date: June 6, 1979 Northwest Laboratories Embryo and fetus. Smith, Frank University of Rochester Associate Professor of Radiation Medical Center Biology and Biophysics Date: June 1, 1978 Uranium and fluoride work. Smith, Victor Battelle, Pacific Date: June 7, 1979 Northwest Laboratories Therapy for deposited radionuclides. Soldat, Joseph Battelle, Pacific Date June 7, 1979 Northwest Laboratories Internal emitter of dosimetry, environmental transfer. 1880 The Interview NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Spiers, William United Kingdom Dates: June 9, 1979, October 9, 1981 Radiological physics, bone seekers, dosimetry. Interviewin 1979 at Richland, Washington; in 1981 at Lake Geneva,Wisconsin. Sterner, James, Professor University of Medical Director California, Irvine Date: April 7, 1978 Eastman Kodak Company and Tennessee Eastman Corporation Uranium and health problems of industrial hygiene in MED. Stover, Betsy, Professor University of North Carolina, Formerly at Date: December 7, 1980 University of Utah Chapter 8, general philosophy. Sullivan, Maurice Battelle, Pacific Date: June 6, 1979 Northwest Laboratories Gastrointestinal transfer and toxicity on ingestion. Taplin, George University of (deceased) California, Date: February 7, 1979 Los Angeles Nuclear medicine, UCLA work at NTS. Terrill, James Food and Drug USPHS (retired) Administration Date: April 4, 1980 Radium literature, role of PHS in internal emitter research Thomas, John University of Date: July 122, 1979 Pennsylvania Radiological physics, tracers. Thomas, Robert Los Alamos National Laboratory, now Dates: September 22, 1981, Headquarters, DOE and subsequent letters and visits. Very broad. Thompson, Roy Battelle, Pacific Northwest Laboratories Date: June 8, 1979 Perspective. History of Hanford and PNL program. Tobias, Cornelius, Professor University of California, Donner Laboratory Berkeley Date: October 23, 1980 Tracer chemistry, biophysics. Tsivoglou, Ernest USPHS (retired at Decatur, Georgia) Date: April 11, 1979 Radon measurements, the uranium miner saga. Villforth, John Food and Drug Date: April 1, 1980 Administration Their history of PHS work in radiological health, general planning. Joint interview, in part, with James Terrill. Voelz, George Los Alamos National Date: September 23, 1981 Laboratory The plutonium workers and related measurements, epidemiology. Wald, Niel University of Pittsburg Date: July 10, 1979 His career, clinical handling of radionuclide exposure cases, nuclear medicine. Appendix A 1881 NAME AND POSITION INSTITUTION Warren, Shields Harvard University (deceased) Date: May 19, 1978 History of nuclear medicine and of AEC biomedical programs. Interview at Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Warren, Stafford University of (deceased) California, Date: February 7, 1979 Los Angeles Chemical toxicology, Nevada and Pacific tests, history of MED. Welander, Arthur School of Fisheries, Date : June 1, 1979 University of Washington The UW program in aquatic biology. Joint interview with Bonham and Larson. White, E. I GA Technology Now at National Council on Radiation Protection Date: April 11, 1978, and and Measurement and subsequent conferences. Environmental aspects. Wilson, Robert University of Rochester Health and Safety Date: June 6, 1978, and subsequent letters. Field tests, TG-57, Operation Roller Coaster, Idaho Falls tests, etc. WARREN, STAFFORD LOS ANGELES 02/07/79 Repository PNL Collection National Radioecology Archives Project Box No. JNS0036 I-3 Folder Stafford Warren INTERVIEW WITH STAFFORD WARREN - SYNOPSIS 2-7-79 1. Chemical vs. RadiatIon problems in Manhattan Project Phosgene incidents uranium hexafluoride - Phil Navy Yard - Arnold Kramish - expose Chemicals caused more problems than radiation 2. The decon work at Rochester with radiosodium for Robley Evans 3. Re/His overexposure in pre-war days trying to do x-ray movies -ca 300 R! - had hematological changes for years - not sick however 4. Regarding viral origin of leukemia - felt the virus was necessary even for radiation to trigger leukemia - if pure radiation could do it should have had many more cases in Pacific (Rongelap) 5. Beta burns in the Pacific tests 6. On problems of moving the Marshallese 7. Considerable discussion of Bikini tests - no inverse square law with extended source 8. His chapter in Army Radiology volume 9. Early literature was mostly on acute effects 10. Work with G.H. Whipple 11. Dial painters work 12. W. Bale early work 13. Frogman at Bikini 14. Major Peterson 15. Early recognition of problems of plutonium - attributedit to Hamilton Warren. Stafford - page 2 16. The first reactor at Oak Ridge 17. Outstanding names 18. Effect of classification 19. Sam Schwartz and feeding of uranium 20. Internal emitter work came later in program than external radiation 21. Naval Research Lab - U hexafluoride separation 22. Hazards of cleaning pipes at K-25 23. ORINS (ORAU) 24. X-10 25. Ultra-centrifuge method 26. Difference with Shields Warren Gap 27. Hypothyroidism Test Leukemia 28. Organization of book Thought it was O.K. 29. Reminded me of Loren Donaldson's work - re/ "proving Ground" 30. NNES Hiatus - (Looking over list, N>S.) - why not published? Apathy 31. Joe Dallavalle - Industrial Hygiene 32. "Dag" Norwood - job of taking care of health of Hanford construction workers - meningitis epidemic 34. What did Kellex Corp. do? - toxicity problems Warren, Stafford - page 3 35. Eisenbud 36. His outstanding memories Protection (or lack of it) at cyclotrons Uranium processing Strontium Ecology work February 7, 1979 INTERVIEW WITH STAFFORD WARREN Former Medical Director of Manhattan Engineer District, Emeritus Dean of UCLA Medical Center, working in Laboratory of Nuclear Med. and Rad. Biology Note: The session included sorting over a part of his historical collection. STANNARD: One of the questions that I found in the material in the book by Brown and MacDonald was that there was a phosgene problem. Where did the phosgene come from? WARREN: Well, the phosgene came from the degradation of carbon tetrachloride which was spilled on a hot plate. We had an interesting situation in Oak Ridge. The processors in the plant, one Saturday afternoon, let out some carbon tetrachloride which happened to get heated in a ventilation system and got our of the chimney over the building. There was a little inversion, so it went downwind to the edge of the parapet and down the side of the building into the toilet where a colored girl was sleeping or goofing off. She woke up suddenly gasping and went running down the hall. We put her in the hospital, and she had quite a bit of phosgene poisoning. And then, of course, there was the accident in chemistry in Berkeley where, oh, I've forgotten his name, anyway he had a broken wrist, and he had some carbon tetrachloride, and there was a Bunsen burner on the desk, or some other way of heating it. And he had it in the flask and was sort of swishing it around while he was talking over the phone long-distance, and it slipped and got heated and the phosgene released was enough to kill him. STANNARD: Really. WARREN: Yes. It's a very quick actor. STANNARD; And a very tricky one because there's very little irritation on inhalation. WARREN:Yes you don't feel much. 1 STANNARD: Were those the only two . . . ? WARREN: . . . . Bad episodes that came to my attention that had anything to do with Manhattan Engineering District program. The colored woman was a contractor employed, I think, by Jones & Company. She did not come ordinarily under our purview, except that we put her in the emergency room in the hospital in Oak Ridge. But she was out in a few days. But the other man, the chemist, left a wife and two young children, and he was under contract with MED, of course, to work on some of these things. STANNARD: Well, then there were the problems with uranium hexafluoride and therefore with fluorine. WARREN: There was a Philadelphia Navy yard explosion in which hexafluoride was being distilled into a big round vessel, and they shut down overnight. They forgot that the gas of hexafluoride becomes a solid when the temperature gets down below 145o. The next morning when they came to start up again, the vessel was about "empty" so they started pouring new gas in and heating it up and all of a sudden there was too much and the vessel exploded. It killed two men. I have a report on it given to me by Mr Kramish*, who was one of the survivors. There were three of those with bad corneal burns. I went over there, drove all night, from Oak Ridge with Lt. Phillips, who was an ophthalmologist. We looked over the reasons. I was afraid the men were going to lose their corneas, but Dr. Phillips said, "No", and the Navy opthamologist said "no, they'd probably peel right off and be alright", and they were. But they had severe burns in the ankles. Mr. Kramish had a hard time getting into the VA program recently. He probably needed some cash, so I wrote a letter on his behalf. But there were surprisingly few problems with the hexa- 2 ______________________ *Mr. Arnold Kramish, R & D Associates, 1401 Wilson Blvd. Arlington, VA 22209 - Copy in NCRP SC-57-15 U file #1 fluoride at the K25 plant. It was all based on the barrier problem of hexafluoride. There were more problems with the solvents which were used to degrease the pipes. Harold Hodge in Rochester did a quick and dirty toxicity study on them. He also did fluorine. STANNARD: Also trichlorethylene? Tennessee Eastman was using that. WARREN: Right. Nobody had any toxicity studies on amy of them. STANNARD: If you had to just make a wild guess as to the relative number of individuals affected in the MED by radiation versus chemical toxicity, would you say they were equal, radiation ahead, or chemical ahead? WARREN: Well, chemicals were ahead. We had a pretty strong control over the radiation problems. Fortunately, with a Geiger counter and then a little later on (well about a year before the bomb detonation), we had film badges. And then the electrometer of Landsverk (isn't that his name, Landsverk?) Somebody in Cal Tech developed a little fountain pen type electrometer. That was used a lot out at Bikini. But fortunately we were running scared from the beginning in the radiation area and by putting down a tenth of an R per day as a limit, which seemed to be an impossible goal, and holding all of the engineering protection to that scale, we did very well. Now you know that building in Rochester for the million volt X-ray machine was just going up, and we had the advantage of making some density measurements or some penetration measurements with a gram of radiosodium sent by robley Evans before I went in to the Manhattan District. And Harold Hodge, Bill Bale, and I contaminated the alfalfa field there just outside on Crittenden Boulevard and then measured through the three-foot wall and the other wall. We learned about sky shine and we had to put another shelf of foot thick concrete to keep the radiation from inside the chambers going up and spoiling the Geiger counter back- 3 ground in the rest of the building. So we knew between our work and what Bob Stone had done with the Sloan Kettering generator and a few other UNREADABLE and the little bit that we got from the Bureau of Standards and the experience I'd had in building the department there at Rochester with the lead and barium and so on.We had a pretty good general idea of what it was going to take oven when we had thousands of curies. STANNARD: Well, one of the wide open questions is with the chemical toxicity, versus radiation toxicity. With chemical toxicity, it's frequently an acute affair and then it's over with, and there are thought to be no long term sequela whereas with radiation now we're seeing all these late effects, 20 and 25 years later. I wonder a little bit if that's not partly a myth in the sense that we haven't looked at well at the long-term sequelae of the chemical toxicity cases. There may not be as much difference as we think. WARREN: I think that's probably right. Also, you've got a Gaussian curve with the effect of radiation. Now Bishop (Francis Bishop from Rochester) and I got enough 60 kilovolt radiation in two nights when we were trying to make X-ray movies of the rabbit's heart which caused us both to have a polycythemia for 10 years! STANNARD: Really! WARREN: Right. And Mrs. Robins followed us right up to the time it stopped, just at the beginning of the war. I came down to normal. But I had small red cells and a somewhat low white count all during that time after the initial drop in the white count and then it came back. And I feel that I've always lived on borrowed time. So I've kind of been in a hurry, you see. But we got, I'm sure, over 300 R. Now that's supposed to be very damaging. But we weren't sick. It was strong enough so that I could see the bones of my hand with a fluoroscope above the lead shield, bounced off the floor, off the ceiling and behind the shield. 4 The first night we didn't pay any attention to the black film because it was a hot night and the developer was probably old. But the second night we believed in and then we tried to make measurements and took the machine down. Unfortunately, the movie film was grainy and the heart looked like a gravel bed with rabbits in it. Too bad! STANNARD: Too bad. That's not internal emitters, so I couldn't include it in my book, unfortunately. WARREN: Yes. But I think a lot of this is over-rated. Now there's one thing. It's pretty clear now that leukemia is viral in origin. And I presume (it's my hunch) that the patients have had the virus for some time and their defense has perhaps been jeopardized a bit by the radiation, the chronic insidious type of radiation. It's awfully confusing. I looked it up once pretty extensively before I came here, before I left Rochester, as a matter of fact, and because of the tale that there were so many radiologists who died of leukemia. Well, there were a few more in radiology than there were in surgery or general medicine, but there were some there, too. And I wondered since most of the leukemia came into therapy at least in our day, if a lot of the virus didn't get passed around. And there was comment among all our group in Rochester who were working on these cases than there'd be three; if we got one, there'd be another, and there'd be another in about the general neighborhood. And then there wouldn't be anymore. So when we got the second one, we wondered where the third one would come from. Now that's a little old wives kind of science, but anyway that made me always feel doubtful about it. And when you take the Rongelap figures, the incidence, if radiation is a specific cause, the incidence of leukemia out there should be far greater than it is. And Conard and his people have kept very good tabs on those. There are a number of carcinomas of the stomach. 5 They got a big dose in internal and external emitters from the fallout. The beta burns were fabulous. I can't understand why, well the AEC was all right, they've been following that up. But the subsequent people haven't paid much attention to it [Not clear what this means, N.S.] STANNARD: That is surprising. Now, of course, there's a big fuss about bringing people back into the Marshalls. WARREN: And to Bikini. STANNARD: And to Bikini. WARREN: Now that's our own fault. They didn't think of going back there. They were going to be all right at one of these other places. Bikini didn't have all that bunch of goodies. It was about able to sustain a population. It was at its maximum when they were thrown out of there. It was just a bunch of politics to take them back. STANNARD: So now they've got teams going out because they've got to move them off again, or they have moved them off again. And I gather there's plutonium around and that scares people half out of their lives just to mention the word. GAP Discussion of Bikini Tests and other Pacific tests WARREN: A young officer, a Comnmnander, a Naval Officer, anyway, he came on board the ship and was introduced to me, and he looked at me, and then he came back and looked at me again and said, "You know, you don't look like the son of a bitch I thought you were." Well, I was taking them off the ship. I was taking their clothing away from them and making them shower. And some of these fellows graduated from Annapolis, and the Geiger counter boys were going around with the Geiger counter help hip high, another fellow does at the foot, and that was 6 essentially court marshal. I was told to explain to all the officers and men of the fleet. There was this hugh meeting about this. And one of the officers got up and challenged me. "We're all engineers and this is foolish. Anybody knows the inverse square law operates." Well, I had to tell him that before the detonation I had asked one of the dive bombers to go with a Geiger counter over the Alamagordo test site, the green glass area, and make measurements at 500 feet. They were all the same till they got to about 2000 feet because there was no inverse square law any more; the source was too big; it was all around, And that's. what they were running up against in the ship. The whole deck was contaminated, the sea was contaminated, the rigging was contaminated. You could hold a Geiger counter only up this high if you wanted to, it wouldn't make any difference. And also as a proof that the boys locally had flown lower with the monitor aboard, so it was with the ship. So you could come over the lagoon at ay 1000 feet, with nothing in the background, and then you'd go over the ship and the thing would go, almost off scale and then back down again. And this was convincing to most! But I got the GI's convinced by sending a civilian crew around with Tom and some of the others on it. And they talked about the, exposure to testicles, and if the boys didn't want to get sterile, they better do what we were saying, what they were told to do. An that went around the latrine rumor system and just over night we had not a bit of trouble with the crew after that. STANNARD: That was very clever. Jim Sterner has told that story with embellishments. WARREN: He was on that committee. STANNARD: I particularly liked his version which may or may not be true, of his suggesting they have one of them stand on the bow of the vessel as they `went into the lagoon and sing. When his voice went up an octave, 7 they'd turn around and go back. Well, one of the first things I had put down out of your chapter called "Effects of the Development of the Atomic Bomb on Radiology", issued by the Army (From "Radiology in World War II" - Office of Sur. Gen., U.S. Army, 1966, Part I.) was the growth of the literature. You mentioned one final outgrowth of these nationwide research activities which played its part in the development of the atomic bomb and you go on to describe the rapid growth of professional journals. "The literature of what is now known as radiobiology accumulated rapidly and frequent collective reviews were published. By 1942, a rather large and comprehensive literature existed from which could be derived many of the safety policies and principles of operation and later protection put into effect at the Metallurgical Laboratory and elsewhere, etc." My question about this, "Was this largely referring to acute radiation effects and Muller type genetic effects, or does it include internal emitters?" WARREN: It was mostly acute. In fact, lethal doses had to be lethal within a week or 10 days to be considered "acute". I'm sure I speak for Bob Stone and Joe Hamilton and probably Miller in San Francisco, in Berkeley, and then very shortly (have you come across the name of K. C. Cole?) Well, he was at Chicago, and he and Bob Stone did a great deal of work philosophizing and discussing this business. Because one of the great problems was how to shield the Fermi reactor. I got into it just about that time. All I needed to do, according to Groves, was to give the engineers doing the design some kind of quantity that they had to shield against radiation or dust or gases, (gases meant hexafluoride because you have the uranium right there.) And you have these X-1 and X-2 degradation products. Now I don't know as I answered what you said. STANNARD: Yes. Yes. 8 WARREN: You couldn't go and look in the literature at the time I started at the Manhattan Engineering Program and find it all. A great deal of it, 90% of it created in the first year of the program. STANNARD: Well, wasn't the paper that you did with Dr. Whipple the first study of the acute radiation syndrome in the dog. Wasn't that really a first? WARREN: Oh, yes. That was a first. Of course, Rikers and I did the bone marrow and some other boy who worked with the silver (colloidal silver) with me and the radiation effects, and really laid out all of the damages that we would find in the Japs you see by this bone marrow effect; the gastrointestinal work and the bone marrow. STANNARD: Well, coming back to your paper, this is the bibliography of the same paper, and the first reference to the radium and mesothorium studies is to Martland, Conlon, and Knef, December 1825. WARREN: The dial painters. STANNARD: That was the dial painters. And what I want to be able to say is that the first paper describing these was such and such. I was a little surprised to find this as early as that because I'd always thought of the Aub, Martland, and Evans paper as number one. But this precedes that I believe. WARREN: Yes. And they got some of the skulls from some of the dial painter people. Well, Martland was the main originator of this. STANNARD: Yes. WARREN: And then he ganged up with the MIT group to get the measurements made and the histology done. STANNARD: Now a little later on you mention Bill Bale in a paper in Radiology, "The use of artificially produced radioactive elements as tagged atoms in biological research." And the reason you mention it was, I think, that that was another first. I get the impression that this 9 really was going on simultaneously with Lawrence's work at Berkeley. WARREN: Yes. Hamilton, Lawrence and then Zirkle and somebody else in Chicago. STANNARD: Well, let me go on to some of the other questions. WARREN: All right. STANNARD: Who is Wayne Hanson? Does that name ring any bells? This is apropos people who might know a little more of the whereabouts of things from the NRDL. Names given me have been Maurice-Fisher who is now in Kaiser Permanente in Oakland, Al Behnke, who's the old diving fellow in the Navy. WARREN: Paul Tiege? Kaufman, the frogmen. Kaufman wouldn't be in your area, but he came into the Bikini thing. He took the ion counters and pulled them ashore in France to be sure that the Germans weren't seeding the shores with radioactive ashes. STANNARD: I see. WARREN: That was the beginning of the frogmen. They put detonations on the hulls of submarines and the submarine pens of the Germans and swam out to get away. STANNARD: Ah Yes. WARREN: Well, they went ashore with all these things and Major (Captain) Peterson at the time (later Colonel) wa in charge of the group in Plymouth, England. Needless to say, they were convinced that the Germans couldn't do it yet. They had uranium in cubes, but they needed heavy water for the shield. STANNARD: I guess you answered earlier one of the more miscellaneous questions I had. It was, who first recognized the potential high 10 toxicity of plutonium, Seaborg or Stone or Hamilton? WARREN: Well, it had to be Hamilton because Stone wasn't doing any experiments and Seaborg, of curse, didn't do it on animals. STANNARD: Well, he gets credited, or he's crediting himself in his book that he's writing, as I understand from Pat Durbin, with having seen all this. I'm sue he took action because there is a written record of letters, etc., but I just had a feeling that, for the record, we should give the initial credit to Joe Hamilton. WARREN: Well, there had to be a biological experiment. STANNARD: Sure WARREN: And there is no doubt that Seaborg, very imaginative person, could have felt that these heavy metals were toxic and at that time we knew that led was a bone seeker. And very early, Cole and others in Stone's group in Chicago found strontium was a bone seeker. I remember seeing a radiograph of mouse skeleton and that was the year they were getting ready to move to Oak Ridge for X-10, the first reactor. They built the reactor in Oak Ridge "by guess and by golly". At the same time they were digging the foundations and getting ready for Hanford. Boy, this General Groves was doing this all the time. He'd found out from hearing something and be on the phone. I would tell him what we found, and he'd ask me another question, and I'd have to call around to various people and talk about tuballoy and what about "49" and a few other things (you know there was a different code for each fellow). And then I would synthesize it, and they'd all object to my saying you can't use this much concrete, but I would have to do it because they were ready. So I multiplied what I thought was a good factor of two or three. And Groves would scream because of the cost and the weight of the concrete, but that's the way it had to be done. It turned out a lot of these are alright. 11 STANNARD: If you were going to write this little tone, what names would you think of that should certainly not, by and stretch of the imagination be omitted? WARREN: There was no single personality that you might say dominated the history. In the biological and medical phase you're talking about? STANNARD: Yes Internal emitters. WARREN: In internal emitters. Nothing else? Yes, put Joe Hamilton at the top, and Scott, as the pair that were doing continual probing on three rats per experiment. It was done very carefully, very precisely, and turned out to be quite accurate later. That's all in the Berkeley end. There were some chemists, of course, who were working on other things but this is strictly biological-medical safety. We could not ignore the long term possible things but we had to safeguard the personnel and carry out the experiments, talk about the acute effects recognizing that it would take lesser dose if we add longtime contact. That was pretty well agreed to very early. Then there's the group in Chicago. Stone was supervising them under Arthur Compton and his associates, and you had Zirkle and Kenneth Cole. . . STANNARD: Did they do internal emitters? WARREN: With strontium. STANNARD: Is that so? WARREN: Strontium had a big play because it had a relatively short half-life and was soluble and it was in high percentage in calculations of the ashes. A lot of work was done with radioiodine. STANNARD: Also by Zirkle and Cole? WARREN: Well, they were all doing it. I don't know who. They divided it up. This was still highly classified, and I didn't want to know any more than what and how, and I wasn't interested in who did it because I didn't need to know that and it was dangerous to know too much, particularly things I didn't need to know. That was a rule all along. 12 STANNARD: Even you? WARREN: Oh, yes. And I developed a very good forgettory and today this bothers me. STANNARD: Well, there must be many things that were kept purposely apart in those days that we now synthesize. One of my jobs is synthesizing where I can. WARREN: That's right. STANNARD: Well, there was Brues and Finkel at Chicago. WARREN: They were there early but their main work was, I think, with neutrons. (GEE, at this point I can't tell you) and Leon Jacobsen. STANNARD: He was into everything. WARREN: Well, they all were. It was a big scientific family. They were all working like mad and interested. They even listened to the physics reports and then they would have a session on what they should do to safeguard what was going to be done. Now, they had feeding experiments done out in the local Chicago hospital, Sam . . ., oh somebody, he did the feeding experiments on uranium. [Probably Samuel Schwartz, N.S.] STANNARD: Oh yes, I have some notes on them. WARREN: Sam Schwartz. And then he began to suspect there was a kidney lesion, and Harold Hodge picked that up and worked on the enzymes that showed up in the urine where there was damage to the kidney by the uranium more than anything else. We used that right away. See, we could tell that to the industrial physicians. It was an easy test to do, and in their survey they could collect the urine at the end of the week or whenever and send it to the lab, and they'd be doing something that didn't tell anything. So this was subcontracted out of a lot. STANNARD: Well, at Rochester and, of course, with Hodge and his group 13 and Bale and Fink, I guess I know those that did internal emitter work there pretty well. WARREN: There wasn't very much in the early days, it was later. STANNARD: Right. WARREN: I had a hard time getting it away from the Chicago group. Some of the work that they couldn't do. They wanted to hold on to it. STANNARD: That must have been foolish WARREN: Well, they didn't realize that. They were kind of jealous of the fact they started a lot of this. STANNARD: What was this special research division and the Naval research laboratory had that Phil Ableson headed up? WARREN: Well, that was the uranium hexafluoride separation. They had that explosion, I told you Kramish was a member of. He designed concentrically placed pipes, a big pipe and a little pipe in the middle, and used 1200 lb/in2 steam to heat the material and cause a rising column in the inner pipe and that meant that the, I always forget whether it was the lighter or the heavier one, went ahead just like Urey's barrier thing only here it was a differential rising. STANNARD: Well, this was really not biology and medicine. WARREN: It was chemical, industrial chemistry. But the hazards were there, and the cleaning of the pipes was a very difficult problem. The solvent, as I told you Harold Hodge did a quick thing. Rochester did mostly the things that were odd, a little off the stream and yet were necessary to do. Hodge for instance; elemental fluorine was a very dangerous thing, and Hodge did very good work on its toxicology. STANNARD: He sure did. Well Paul Pearson's name keeps coming up. Did he have anything much to do with internal emitters? WARREN: I don't think so. He became an administrator in the AEC office. And, well I won't say anything more. 14 STANNARD: I get the picture. The Oak Ridge hospital during the war - it was a facility to care for workers and families, and then they got a tie-in with the Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies. Correct? WARREN: That was later, yes. STANNARD: Of course, I have to cover something about that. They had work on rare earths, and then they got this gallium work going. I have a little feeling that relative to many of the other things to be covered that I'm going to have to give it short shrift because I don't think a great deal came out of it. Although there were a lot of publications, and maybe there was more to it than I am giving it credit. WARREN: Well, the National Laboratory there was created out of the X-10 plant. But there was also the Eastman Kodak method based on Lawrence's cyclotron principle. Actually I would say the labs arose because they needed scientists in the program and wanted something for them to do and allowed them to create their own program. There was ultra-centrifuge work done by Anderson at Los Alamos. I think that was his name. It was really a very nice improvement on the whole of centrifuge technology. They could separate the virus and the medium and eliminate all the reactions from the medium that might happen in the vaccine and all that sort of thing. And of course now they used the centrifuges in the separation of uranium. It's interesting that Bill Bale and Harold Hodge and I proposed the use of the ultracentrifuge before I went into the Manhattan Engineer District when I didn't know a thing about it. We were given the brush-off, and I was awful upset. Because I thought we ought to be doing something like that you know. The damn Germans were going to have their bomb if we didn't. Well, later we laughed a great deal about this and now . . . I think that they ought to be given credit for a lot of clean-up work. I don't know as you want to call it that, but they did some good genetic studies 15 on the mice, didn't they? That's external radiation. STANNARD: My impression is that there was no much bio-medical research at all at Los Alamos until after the war. WARREN: Well, Wright Langham, I forgot to mention him, he did some work very much like Hamilton. STANNARD: Wasn't that later? As I recall he came and was primarily concerned with bioassay of plutonium. He set up the equations for plutonium excretion, etc., and then later on they had some things to do that they couldn't get any body else to do and then decided to do it. WARREN: There was a lot of difficulty in getting people to work on some things. Not that they were frightened but that the thing was so difficult. I had a long argument with Shields Warren after the war. I told him that for the first time biological research with gases and dust had been put on a good should basis by the Manhattan Engineering District because they spent the money to do it and do it in a hurry. It could be done very quickly except it's a long time toxic agent. But he said; "oh, no!" The reason was he had done quite a bit with lead, but he hadn't really succeeded in solving this problem. But he was later using our techniques from the Manhattan Engineering District, Harold Hodge's technique. Using Harold Hodge's chambers for exposure to dust. And that's a very tough technique, and you can only get a kind of approximation because of the vortices. Like the same trouble I was describing for this incubator here. I got probably four different temperatures. GAP STANNARD: This continues the discussion with Staff Warren. The question was asked about the possibility of hypothyroidism in anybody under actual exposure conditions to fallout away from the test site. WARREN: Well, when you have unlimited numbers of people and unlimited numbers of different doses emitted and different kinds of radiation, you can expect all kinds of things. Of course, there's no doubt about the fact of there's enough exposure to radioactive iodine from the fallout you'll get a myxedema. Kermit Larson found myxedematous jackrabbits at the Test Site and in Souther Utah and some of the other areas where he was doing a follow-up. Those were areas where the people were forbidden to see it at the time of the detonation. And the Japanese were pretty much free of fall out. The burst was high enough, and the winds were such that the fallout material went over the Yellow Sea and it was dissipated. It was pretty high, not very awfully high but high enough. The Rongelap people have been well surveyed. They were confined to a restricted geographic site and we know fairly well what the exposure was. I think Conard got that pretty well. And now he's reporting a few carcinomas of the thyroid, stomach, and squamous cells of the skin. But the people aren't overwhelmed with this. They're few. One I remember was a 16 young boy who was a baby at the time of the shot. It was too bad, he came down with leukemia. We couldn't do anything for it. I don't think the evidence was very good that we would have had tremendous number in the population that within `0 years would come down with leukemia. I think if we had a tremendous number of the population exposed you would have the gussian curve effect, a lot would die right away, some would die later, and some would die a great deal later, and some would develop all kinds of other things. We would have some developmental problems with the progeny. I don't know as I have done more than obscure the answer! STANNARD: Well, let me ask you another one. Earlier I gave you a general outline of how I plan t approach the subject, and I would appreciate your off-the-cuff response to that plan. I thought of several ways. One would be to do everything chronologically. Another would be to do it by installation. I discarded both of those, the chronological one on the 17 basis it would lead to discussing everything together just because they were in a given time. And kind of the same thing about the installations. Things were going on as different facets of the same problem. The best thing would be to organize according to the problems that were under consideration, and to go right from A to Z on that problem in a given section of the book. WARREN: Well, you'd have a chapter on the alpha emitters, say, and how they were produced, what the numbers were, and then the biological effects. STANNARD: I don't believe I'm going to spend very much time on how they got there and how much there was because I'm going to use as copious reference material as I can to shorten it up. Otherwise, I'm going to have three volumes. WARREN: Yes. STANNARD: Well, what do you think of the general plan of organization to start with the naturally occurring source materials, then do the new problems with the fission products with a little introduction of cyclotron produced radionuclides, and then the actinides, plutonium, etc., and then the fallout and all the research stimulated by that. A kind of special section on personalities whose lives were affected by it, and then the instrumentation and methodology and then some sort of a summary. And then put at the end in an index where to find work by particular people and where to find work at a particular place. WARREN: Yes, I think that would be very good. I would be interested in reading such. Before I forget it, don't forget Donaldson in Seattle. He published a beautiful gene work, hereditary studies of radiation effects, 200 kilovolt, on the salmon and the trout. He got any imaginable defects. He did a nice job. Under these studies the 18 Bikini Atoll and the fisheries out there got a background before and a study afterward. He's got a beautiful (of course he's retired now, but he's still working up there), he's got a beautiful system. The salmon come back to the laboratory where they were planted. STANNARD: I know. That's one of the mysteries of nature. WARREN: But he gets them fed and housed for free. Except they have a big mortality. STANNARD: Well, what I wrote in my general letter, did I give you a copy of it by the way? WARREN: No. STANNARD: Well, let me get one out. When I sent it to Donaldson, he very kindly sent back a copy of the book, Proving Grounds. WARREN: Yes. Wasn't that nicely done? STANNARD: It was. But I still plan to see him about December. I must spend some time in Seattle anyway. I thought probably I ought to go up and see Harold Copp up in Vancouver. I understand he's still up there. WARREN: Now let's see, Harold Copp, Oak Ridge? STANNARD: He was part of the Berkeley group on bone. WARREN: Oh, yes. And then he had the big argument about bone deposition. I think we're talking about the same fellow. He drank methyl alcohol down at Oak Ridge. He almost lost his sight. That's how it came to my attention. STANNARD: Well, Staff, I'd like to go over another area. This is one I'm calling the "Hiatus in the NNRS Series." I have here a letter which was addressed to a fellow named Wakerling up at the Radiation Laboratory in Berkeley back in 1967 in which a fellow named Vaden down at Oak Ridge Technical Information sends him a list of the proposed 19 papers in volumes 22F, G, and H of the NNES series which were to be edited by Ray Zirkle and for which manuscripts were never received. WARREN: Is Zirkle still alive? STANNARD: Zirkle is still alive, and I finally got his address in a place called Lawrenceburg. Colorado. WARREN: Oh, yes. STANNARD: I've written to him and asked him about it. This is just the list of the papers. There are 50 papers (don't mind my hen scratches on the side). In perusing that, do those ring enough of a bell to tell you whether this was important work that didn't get published another way? WARREN: (Pause while he went over list) It's hard to tell. Here's a paper, "Calculation of Dosage Due to Internal Emitters", by Waldo Cohen. That could be very interesting. STANNARD: That didn't get any number, and the only person I thought might have it would be AY Friedell because he's got a complete set of summary reports which preceded these. This reminds me that he is writing a history of the biological part in the MED. WARREN: That would be very interesting. He had phenomenal memory, a good mathematician too. Now here's one, and that would be good, "The Metabolism of Carrier-Free Fission Products in the Rat," by Scott, Overstreet, Jacobson, Hamilton, Fisher, Crowley, Chaikoff, Enterman, Fishler, Barber, and Loomis. That's quite a big group. Overstreet is in Berkeley and Jacobson was there then. I think that's why it got a number. It says "no CH". What does that mean? STANNARD: No Chicago number. Most of these had a Chicago number and then an MDDC or an AECD number. WARREN: Then this group down here, "Radiotoxicity of Injected s=89 for Rats, Mice, and Rabbits." There's "Introduction", "Metabolism 20 [All of this done while looking over the list, N.S.] and Organ Distribution", by Anthony, Lathrop, and Finkle, "Lethal Action", Anthony, Lathrop, and Snyder, Hematological Effects of Externally and Parenterally Administered Strontium-89 in Mammals", by Simmons and Jacobson. I think those ought to be significant. STANNARD: Obviously some of these have been summarized elsewhere, but to your knowledge have the details ever seen the light of day? WARREN: I would think so, but then I wouldn't be a good judge on that. STANNARD: Well, I haven't found them yet, and I've been looking fairly hard. WARREN: A lot of work by Anthony. STANNARD: Yes, and this one was Copp, Greenberg, and Hamilton. There's our friend Hamilton again. STANNARD: Right. WARREN: I wouldn't be sure, but somebody like Joe Ross or Bob Bennett ought to know where copies would be. STANNARD: These are among those ones that I haven't seen the abstract of yet, and these are what I'm trying to get out of the library here. WARREN: More of Hamilton. Well, there's more strontium and plutonium. I wouldn't know too much about this because this came along in '47. I arrived here in February of '47 and from then on I was doing other things in a very big way. As a matter of fact, I never took a sabbatical. STANNARD: Have you any idea why these never saw the light of day? Three whole volumes. WARREN: Apathy. STANNARD: Does the name Joe Dallavalle ring a bell to you? WARREN: Yes, but I don't know where. Could you give me more? STANNARD: Georgia Tech to Tennessee Eastman. 21 WARREN: After the war? STANNARD: No, during the war. Jim Sterner talks about him quite a little bit. He had a lot to do with the Tennessee Eastman Program, the biomedical aspects. How about "Bunny" Hansen from Eastman Kodak? WARREN: No, he didn't come into my orbit. STANNARD: Well, let's look a little more globally, Dag Norwood? WARREN: Oh yes. STANNARD: Very good . . . WARREN: Earnest, hard-working, hard-driving doctor. Took good care of his people. STANNARD: He was the physician in charge of Hanford? WARREN: He was the company physician. Who was the company? STANNARD: DuPont. WARREN: DuPont, Yes. He as DuPont's physician for Hanford work. The only thing he didn't have was the contractor personnel. They just had a small group of doctors, one or two there. When they had a meningitis epidemic. I had to go up there. They had 5-6000 workers in tents, building the forms for the reactors. They had 3 or 4 meningitis cases. And the contact spread of that was very imminent. so I put isolation in and got some more doctors in so we could tackle it. Unfortunately, we didn't have any drugs at that time that would do any good. Sulfa drugs were just barely in the periphery, but it wasn't known that they would do any good. It finally subsided; though we could have lost the whole thing if that had spread. Fortunately, we didn't have any panic among the labor: I talked to the labor steward on the job and said, "Well, just wait now. It will get well. Some will die and that's all we can do. If we keep them in these other tents, it won't spread." And we had some good nurses, tough old public health nurses who knew their way around, and they could boss 22 the people, for helping in the care of these people. One of the big problems was to get latrines around. You know, out in the desert. STANNARD: There was a lot of work on polonium done, of course. . . WARREN: At Monsanto. STANNARD: At Monsanto and I gather that was a very dirty operation. WARREN: Yes. STANNARD: They also had a research program there for a while. WARREN: Yes, and a boy named Silverman came here afterwards as our health physics man. Very able, just beginning to be trained as a technician in public health environmental problems. And with a Geiger counter and a Queenie he did a good job trying to safeguard the company's employees. I don't remember that they got into any real trouble. You know polonium is a very bad actor. It sort of creeps around. The alpha particle is emitted with a kick. So you can have some of it go up the side wall. Oh dear. STANNARD: Well, that Bone Brake Theological Seminary building was a most unlikely place to do a clean job. They probably did pretty well considering what they had. Why did they stick with polonium as the neutron source for so long It has a short half-life and it would disappear. They had to keep making it in quantity and putting it in. Or is that classified? WARREN: Well, I don't really know. Later, it was used as an initiator in the hydrogen bomb, wasn't it? STANNARD: That's my question. Why don't they switch to plutonium instead of keeping on with Polonium? WARREN: I don't know really. There was some reason that the physics boys had. STANNARD: Probably the high specific activity. WARREN: Yes. You could make it an easy source of neutrons. 23 STANNARD: Yes, just give it some beryllium. What did the Kellex Corporation do? WARREN: They were a managing corporation that took the UX problem. This was a nonprofit, separate corporation from the main Carbon and Carbide Corporation. I knew the president and vice-president very well.They would ask questions, real piercing questions. I could help them enough. Well, none of the questions they asked were very sensitive. They had the problem of the barrier, and they wanted to know about toxicity of nickel which at the time wasn't very well known. Nickel is a metal. As far as I could see there was no toxicity, the way they were fabricating it anyway. And of course they had problems with the hexafluoride. They had a lot of problems with the degreasing of the equipment. They had a sensitive swimming pool full of the solvent. STANNARD: Where was that? WARREN: In Oak Ridge, while they were putting together the K-25 plant. And Harold Hodge solved the toxicity problem of that. It was pretty severe, but they could handle it. STANNARD: That would be inhalation toxicity? WARREN: Inhalation and skin absorption. See, they were handling these pipes in and out without any gloves, a simple matter of putting on gloves. And then they could wear masks, this is all outdoors so the idea was not to work downwind. STANNARD: Well, was this thing called the New York Safety Committee, an off-shoot of the Kellex Corporation? What was this New York Safety Committee? WARREN: That must have been afterwards. STANNARD: They are mentioned in the book by Brown and MacDonald as if they had a lot to do with setting standards, and I'd never 24 heard of them. WARREN: I never heard of them either. STANNARD: Okay, well. WARREN: Who are they? There was some more, oh what was the name of the fellow that was in New York office of the AEC? STANNARD: Eisenbud. WARREN: Eisenbud. But he was after the war, a year or so. He had a great deal to do with safety. He got interested in the fallout because some crossed upper New York State. STANNARD: Yes. Well, I've asked you a lot of questions. I guess it'd probably be a lot better if I just sat still and you reminisced a little bit, if you want to. Maybe you'd like to go home. WARREN: Oh no, I don't go home until after 5:00. I have my final rounds on my incubators. STANNARD: I see. Well, I have to go and relieve the nurse taking care of my wife fairly soon. WARREN: Well, what would you like to talk about? STANNARD: I guess things that stand out in your memory as particularly related to internal emitter work. WARREN: Well, it was all that was in the background because the explosion was just one attribute and you had the immediate and the prompt radiation. But then you had all the fission products and you presumably, theoretically, you had the whole atomic scale, split, one way or another. And we didn't know at first, and nobody could tell us. But I gradually got information from various laboratories. Hamilton would tell me a lot about his points of view. Ernest Lawrence, I didn't bother; he was too busy and too far away, though he was very much interested in safety. The first time I visited him before the war and before DuBridge had his cyclotron, he didn't have any protection for the operators. I think he had two five gallon 25 drums of water, and I raised hell about it. I was scared to death. If he was going to do this on amy large scale, he ought to protect the operators and maybe the people in the next lab. So, he wrote me a letter about 3 or 4 months later advising me that I'd be glad to know that he'd put up a wall of 5 gallon oil drums of water. And I though that was very good, and it did the trick. When DuBridge started his up, he started with water as protection. But at first, we knew about radium, and it is not very much. But it would come up in the mining, we were finding it a problem also at X-1 and X-2. And if we hadn't had Bill Bale's Geiger counter, I never worried much about them, but after say, a week's extraction with ether of the uranium cake in the bottom of the extractor, we could find it with a Geiger counter, really by curie amounts, fantastically large amounts. So we got them to bleed that all off at regular intervals to get it out of the way. and then we had the problem of what in hell to do with it. Strontium came up early, too. I'll never forget K. C. Cole demonstrating the radioactive deposit of strontium in the skeleton of a mouse, a radiograph of it. And later, Donaldson made a radiograph of some fish from the Bikini Atoll. Well, I showed that in the next report. These all come along. We had problems with the big storage reservoirs in Hanford. I wanted to be sure they wouldn't leak. And then they had drilled wells all around there to find out what the geological structure was, and this area sediment was in an oxbow section of the river, like a big flood plain. It was no surprise 20 years later that they began to find a little. But it was at academic levels. It never got high enough to even worry anybody, but it could have. - End of interview - 26