Tab H Attachment A: Excerpts From Transcripts of the First and Seventeenth Meetings of the Committee on Medical Sciences, 4/28/48. Attachment B: Agenda of Eighth Meeting of the Joint Panel On the Medical Aspects of Atomic Warfare, 9/18/51-9/20/51. Attachment C: Security List and Accompanying Letter dated 12/20/52 Concerning 2/24/52 Joint Panel Meeting Attachment E: CIA Documents On Atomic Energy Intelligence ATTACHMENT A (TAB H) Excerpts from Transcripts of the First and Seventeenth Meetings of the Committee on Medical Sciences RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT BCAF COMMITTEE ON MEDICAL SCIENCES Washington 25, D.C. Transcript of First Meeting Held on 28 April 1948 Room 3E-665 The Pentagon PRESENT: Dr. Francis G. Blake, Chairman Brig. General George E. Armstrong, USA Brig. General John M. Bargreaves, USA Captain Charles W. Shilling, MC, USN Captain James J. Sapero, MC, USN Colonel Don Longfellow, MC, USA Colonel Otis O. Benson, Jr. MC, USA SECRETARIAT: Dr. Joseph F. Sadusk, Jr., Executive Director Commander Earl E. Metcalfe, MC, USN, Navy Secretary Major James B. Nuttall, MC, USA, Air Force Secretary ALSO PRESENT: Dr. Vannevar Bush Rear Admiral J.H. Carson, USN Mr. F. H. Richardson Rear Admiral J.T. Boone, USN Captain W. Dana, Mc, USN Colonel C.G. Bliteh, MC, USA Lt. Commander R.L. Christy, MC, USN Major William J. Brown, MC, USA Major George F. ILLEGIBLE, MC, USA Dr. John S. Lockwood Mr. Frank Campbell, CIA Dr. Eugene Scott DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE Research and Development Board Washington, D.C. COMMITTEE ON MEDICAL SCIENCES Transcript of Seventeenth Meeting Held 30-31 October 1952, 3E-1060 The Pentagon Thursday Morning Session 30 October 1952 The 17th Meeting of the Committee on Medical Sciences, Research and Development Board, convened at 0935 Hours, Room 3E-1060, The Pentagon, Dr. Lowell T. Coggeshall, Dean, Division of Biological Sciences, University of Chicago, Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, we will get under way with your permission and call the meeting to order. I should like to, first, refer to the first item on the Agenda, the approval of the Minutes of the 16th meeting. They have been circulated. Those items that should be followed up are part of today's Agenda. Are there any corrections or discussion about the Minutes of the last meeting? Hearing none, I will assume they are approved as circulated. It is our pleasure this morning to greet some new members. Admiral Dana is her with us as a member. WE all know Commander Phillips and Commander Phoebus, new Navy Deputy members. We have Dr. Hunter here from Human Resources, Dr. DuBois next from the Panel on Shipboard and Submarine Medicine, Dr. Phillip Owen, representing the National Research Council, and Dr. Joseph Lilienthal, of the Panel on Aviation Medicine, and Dr. Yaeger from the Central Intelligence Agency Did we overlook anyone? 1 The report of Panel activities will be the next formal item on the Agenda. Good morning, Dr. Aub. This Dr. Joseph Aub, who is the Chairman of the Joint Panel on Atomic Warfare. Before getting underway with Panel Activities, I would like to make few statements about the last meeting we had, a meeting of the chairmen of the various committees with Mr. Whitman, in which he brought certain statements to us regarding our operations. There was a meeting in mid- September as I said, of the committee chairmen. He pointed out at the time since the establishment of the RBD there have been four Secretaries of Defense, as well as four different secretaries for the RBD, so that there was much difference in opinion and did not offer this as an explanation or admission even that there was any confusion, but if it did exist that that might be a reason. He pointed out further that the RDB, as you know, is a policy group, it is not operational. The internal policy is the concern of Dr. Whitman and his deputies. Dr. Floyd Miller is the Assistant Director in charge of or responsible for two or three committees including the Committee on Medical Sciences. In the RDB there is a staff of 58 military and 258 civilians. Of this group 144 are professionals. Their involved. 2 DR. HUNTER: We still have this other committee. I always object to multiplication of organizations in which the same man appears in different hats. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Dr. Hunter, and you will, of course, discuss the situation with Dr. Owen. Since the meeting has come to order here, I see Dr. Sebrell is with us. He is Dr. Topping's replacement. We are happy to welcome you, Dr. Sebrell. DR. SEBRELL: Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN: The next thing under panel activities is the Joint Panel on Medical Aspects of Atomic Warfare. DR. MUSSELLS: The New Members are Lt. Col. E.A. Pinson of the Air Force, he was formerly an associate member, and Dr. Ellis J. Robinson who replace Dr. Bruce Dill as an associate member from the Medical Laboratories, Army Chemical Center. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Now, Dr. Aub is with us. Would you like to report on the recommendations of your panel, Dr. Aub? DR. AUB: There are only two. The first one refers to Aviation Medicine. Not too much is known about radiation exposure even in ideal situations where bombs would really be dropped as in possible Northern Russia or elsewhere. The 3 conditions would be quire different, heavy clouds and so forth. Under the circumstances I think nothing is known as to the exposure which aviators would get by evasive action in going into these clouds. Therefore, it seems very important to have that explored not only to see how far the mushroom would go but also what the amount of explosion radiation would be in these clouds. As I understand, it was taken up by the Committee on Atomic Energy a few days ago and was forwarded to Mr. Speakman in the hopes that AFSWP would undertake this. THE CHAIRMAN: I see. We might discus the first recommendation as presented by Dr. Aub now. In other words it is a recommendation to implement this proposal by the Research and Development Board. Any discussion on this? ADMIRAL DANA: I would like to ask a question, if I may, Mr. Chairman. I don't understand it. I don't understand the wording of it. In the first place it says, "Whereas the Joint Panel on the Medical Aspects of Atomic Warfare, concerned with the hazard of flying through an atomic cloud, feels that deficiencies of knowledge exist in cloud rise, dispersion with yield, at latitudes of low and double tropopause, and at extreme meteorological conditions of 10/10'S cloud cover of one or more cloud decks." I think the recommendation is not complete and should be re-written. I think I understand what is meant, but I do think it should be re-written. I would like 4 to know what a 10/10 cloud is, if it is something that can be more easily said than understood. Can you tell us what a 10/10 cloud is? Am I the only one who is ignorant? DR. AUB: A 10/10 cloud is a completely overcast cloud. We usually only speak of a 9/10. A 10/10 is a really big cloud overcast everywhere. CAPTAIN SHILLING: There is a policy thing I would like to inquire about. "...; therefore, be it resolved that the subject motion..." I don't know where the subject motion is. I don't see the motion and this worried me a little, "be considered by the Research and Development Board for implementation." How are they going to implement it? Somebody is going to have to do some research in aircraft flying. I didn't realize that the RDB was now an implementing agency in doing research. COLONEL WOOD: Mr. Chairman, I feel this needs to be rewritten all right. The objective of this thing, since I was on the discussion of it, is to gain enough information by actual explosion of a bomb in the Arctic under these conditions to study cloud rise and dispersion, and to determine the hazards created thereby within the clouds, to determine whether evasive action to hide from the enemy is possible by diving into such a contaminated cloud layer. What they are really asking for is an Arctic trial of an atomic explosion with operational flying into the cloud to study conditions in the cloud and to see whether such a procedure is safe. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Now the implementation, am I correct, Dr. Aub, that since this is a joint panel they are asking research and development approval of it, that this will be done by the AEC? DR. AUB: By AFSWP. CAPTAIN SHILLING: But the Research and Development Board consider it for implementation. They can refer it to someone else requesting that the work be done. THE CHAIRMAN: They can concur in this recommendation that the study be made. CAPTAIN SHILLING: Yes. I would like to see a re-write personally before I vote on it because it doesn't say what they have in mind. THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Aub, could we get this re-written with these improvements? DR. AUB: I think it needs it. I will work on it. THE CHAIRMAN: All right, fine. DR. MUSSELLS: This motion got up to the Committee on Atomic Energy. I am going to ask Lt. Stoeckle to get a copy of what they have submitted. It just adds confusion to have two separate motions. 6 LT. STOECKLE: I haven't seen the one transmitted to Dr. Speakman. DR. MUSSELLS: Could you get a copy from his office? THE CHAIRMAN: It would probably be presumptuous on our part to correct their motion. DR. MUSSELLS: Yes, I think this actually involves more their area than it does ours of this joint panel. The Committee on Atomic Energy did pass this motion and they may have modified it slightly although I didn't hear if they did. It has gone up to the Chairman's office for submission to AFSWP. THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Aub, would present the second motion that your committee or panel is bringing to the committee? DR. AUB: The second motion deals with distribution of program guidance. The Panel thought that if program guidance was of any virtue it ought to be of help to people who were planning programs and those doing it. We understood that program guidance had a very narrow distribution and we requested that program guidance from our Panel at least have a wider distribution so that if it had any virtue at all it could be of value to people who were doing the investigation. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Aub. Dr. Mussells? 7 DR. MUSSELLS: We have looked into the matter of the distribution of program guidance and for the Joint Panel on Medical Aspects of Atomic Warfare it goes to all the members of that panel itself as well as to the Committee members and four copies went to the Army G-3, one copy to Army G-4, six to the Army War College, one to CIA, and one to WSEG. That was the total distribution of the program guidance of the Joint Panel. CAPTAIN SHILLING: How many go to the Navy and Air Force? None? DR. MUSSELLS: None. COMMANDER POLLARD: They go as attachments to the Committee's program guidance. COLONEL GAGGE: There is a distribution list? DR. MUSSELLS: Yes, These distribution lists come through the service briefing officer of the Board and they are submitted in that manner. It is done through the service briefing officer of the BOARD and they are submitted in that manner. It is done through the service briefing officer. COLONEL GAGGE: Who is that, General Maxwell in our office? DR. MUSSELLS: He is not your briefing officer. He is the Air Force Secretary on the Board. I don't know who the Air Force Briefing Officer is, but these lists are submitted by the services to their briefing officers. 8 COLONEL WOOD: Who is our briefing officer? DR. MUSSELLS: They change so frequently I can't keep up with them, but I can get you a list. THE CHAIRMAN: I have question about this item. I thought it was the responsibility of the service representation on this Board to see that everyone in their department, everyone that needed to be informed should be so that the commanding officers of all the research laboratories would be informed via the members of the Secretariat or themselves. Wouldn't that take care of it? COLONEL WOOD: May I speak to that? THE CHAIRMAN: Please, John. COLONEL WOOD: Heretofore one copy of these panel program guidances has reached as far as our medical Research and Development Board in the Surgeon Generals office. We have never had any copies to send to the laboratories of the installations concerned to help them with their planning. It has served as a guide in our budget planning, program planning, but only at one level, the SGO level. Now, this document, if it is not accepted by the laboratories as a directive to go ahead but does help them in their planning, we would like very much to see it go to each installation where the guidance will affect them at all and to reach them at the earliest possible date after its formulation. We would not like this, as indicated in the last part of this recommendation, to be a directive to those laboratories but to serve as a guide to them in their planning. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: I would think so, certainly as an information guide it's excellent. I think we quite agree that if the directors of the laboratory--they should know immediate when you say that a certain project should be accelerated for emphasis, be emphasized or de-emphasized and they don't get that word except by a round about way. Am I correct on that? CAPTAIN SHILLING: You are quite correct. I just visited the radiological defense laboratory for several days two weeks ago now. I was quite horrified to find that none of the top management there had ever seen any program guidance from the Research and Development Board level from any committee. THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think that is very good myself. ADMIRAL DANA: many of the bureaus, Dr. Coggeshall, don't like to do it. Their interest is in handling the thing entirely separately in their relationship with the Research and Development Board because they feel that is a Secretary of Defense level organization and they pass it on in little projects like the Bureau of Aeronautics has had various things done through their laboratories. Personally I felt when I was here before that these things would be useful to our management 10 control laboratories and I wrangled additional copies over here from our committee and sent them out to the laboratories so they could read them because I felt that after all it has already written, why should we go ahead and repeat it in some other and less useful form perhaps. The mechanism of getting them to the laboratories, it seems to me, is only the problem of publishing or printing a sufficient number of them and if the Secretariat will honor a distribution list for us that we would like to have sent out or if we can come and receive them and mail them out ourselves, we would be willing to assume the responsibility. COLONEL WOOD: We can that, if we are just furnished the additional copies. ADMIRAL DANA: That is all that is necessary. THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me that is of great importance. That is one thing that can be done. CAPTAIN SHILLING: Of all the panels and the committees, not only this one. THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to put this on record? I think we should. DR. McLEAN: It should apply to all of them, not only to this one. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Will you make such a motion then? Of course, it isn't up to Dr. Aub. He is only recommending for his panel. Would this be the appropriate place? Does the Committee feel it is necessary that his apply to all panels? Combine it into one motion here? GENERAL DeCOURSEY: I was just wondering, if in the directive, in the talk that you gave at the beginning of the hour, if the people will think that this committee is getting down to details; whether or not we should make this or show them that we are thinking this is a real policy and, as Admiral Dana brought out, what we are trying to get over is that research comes from the worker down below. If he gets interested in a sphere we want he can't be directed by somebody sitting at a desk in the middle of someplace. THE CHAIRMAN: That is a very good point. My feeling about that was my remark to Colonel Wood, that instead of guidance I used it an information item. I think that it would be very wrong if the Committee felt that this was a directive of any sort. CAPTAIN SHILLING: It says pretty clearly, "Only for the purpose of dissemination of information and is not..."I certainly wouldn't want any guidance... GENERAL DeCOURSEY [interposing]: Oh, I didn't mean to put over that. We want it for information. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? If not, all those in favor of the motion number 2 here please say "Aye"- "Contrary?" [None] Carried. DR. MUSSELLS: I have a report on the first motion. The first motion was modified in the following manner: The "whereas" was removed. The motion now starts, "The Joint Panel." The first sentence reads the same. The second sentence is ended after "encountered." CAPTAIN SHILLING: The first sentence is not yet a sentence because there is no verb in it but that's all right. DR. MUSSELLS: I presume they inserted "is" between warfare, oh, yes, "feels" is a verb. CAPTAIN SHILLING: That's all right. DR. MUSSELLS: It ends after "encountered" with a period. The new paragraph "Be it resolved that the subject motion be considered by the Research and Development Board for implementation." It is in the Vice Chairman's office now and is being transmitted to AFSWP in this form. DR. McLEAN: I move we concur in the motion in the form adopted by the Committee on Atomic Energy. THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second to the motion. CAPTAIN SHILLING: Second. THE CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? All in favor say "Aye" -"Contrary minded?" [None] The motion is carried. 13 Do you have anything further, Dr. Aub? We have some others that will be of interest to your Panel later, but do you have anything further from your panel? DR. AUB: There is a long discussion on Psychological Aspects. THE CHAIRMAN: I think the program guidance we will come back to that. DR. AUB: We dropped psychological aspects because apparently it was not our function although we made several resolutions. THE CHAIRMAN: I think in the program guidance we will come back to that point. GENERAL DeCOURSEY: Mr. Chairman, do you need a motion on the new members? THE CHAIRMAN: I included that in the over-all motion in the first one, but in the second one we did not so would you make a motion to that effect? GENERAL DeCOURSEY: I move we approve the nominations for new members of the Joint Panel. THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? DR. BOND: Second. THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor say "Aye - Contrary? [None]" Carried. I think we will take a five-minute break, then we will start back again. [A short recess was taken.] 14