BEFORE THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RADIATION EXPERIMENTS MEETING NUMBER 7 Day 2 of 3 October 12, 1994 San Francisco, California USA BUNN & ASSOCIATES Registered Professional Reporters Worldwide 81 Bixby Road Post Office Box 1602 Glenrock, Wyoming 82637 USA In USA 1-800-435-2468 Worldwide 011-307-436-2468 Worldwide Telefax 011-307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 160 1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS; 2 RUTH R. FADE, Ph.D., M.P.H., Chair 3 KENNETH R. FEINBERG, J.D. 4 ELI J. GLATSTEIN, M.D. 5 JAY KATZ, M.D. 6 PATRICIA A. KING, J.D. 7 SUSAN E. LEDERER, Ph.D 8 RUTH MACKLIN, Ph.D. 9 LOIS L. NORRIS 10 NANCY L. OLEINICK, Ph.D. 11 HENRY D. ROYAL, M.D. 12 PHILIP K. RUSSELL, M.D. 13 MARY ANN STEVENSON, M.D., Ph.D. 14 DUNCAN THOMAS, Ph.D. 15 REED V. TUCKSON, M.D. 16 DAN GUTTMAN Executive Director 17 APPEARANCES: 18 BARBARA BIRNEY 19 SARA CHANDROS 20 JEREMY SUGARMAN 21 Anna Mastroianni Staff 22 23 24 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 161 1 INDEX 2 Page 3 CALL TO ORDER 6 4 Ruth Faden, Chair 5 OPENING REMARKS 6 Ruth Faden, Chair 6 REPORTS FROM SUBCOMMITTEES 7 ORAL HISTORY 18 Susan Lederer 8 SUBJECT INTERVIEWS 27 Ruth Faden and Jeremy Sugarman 9 RESEARCH PROPOSAL REVIEW 32 Ruth Macklin and Sara Chandros 10 OUTREACH 67 Reed Tuckson 11 12 AGENCY UPDATES 71 13 Ruth Faden 14 REPORTS FROM SUBCOMMITTEES (Continued): 15 BIOMEDICAL RESEARCH-SELECTION OF CASE 85 STUDIES 16 Duncan Thomas and Barbara Berney 17 DAY 2 OPENING REMARKS 164 18 PUBLIC COMMENTS: 19 20 Nancy Lynch 177 San Ramon, California 21 Jackie Maxwell 187 Menlo Park, California 22 Vernon Sousa 197 23 San Francisco, California 24 Bwynne Burroughs 205 Chico, California 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 162 1 INDEX (Continued) Page 2 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): 3 Israel Torres 213 Nipomo, California 4 Audrey Hack 228 5 Union City, California 6 Richard Harley 232 7 Bakersfield, California 8 Don Arbitlit 240 San Francisco, California 9 Geoffrey Sea 251 10 San Francisco, California 11 Harold Bibeau 261 Portland, Oregon 12 Charlie Anderson 274 13 Placerville, California 14 Tom Wilson 280 Placerville, California 15 Michael Yesley 287 16 Los Alamos, New Mexico 17 Lynne Stembridge 300 Spokane, Washington 18 Trisha Pritikin 308 19 Berkeley, California 20 Lois Camp 320 21 Darcy Thrall 331 22 Bernard Lo 349 San Francisco, California 23 Jackie Cabasso 368 24 Oakland, California 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 163 1 INDEX 2 (Continued) 3 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): 4 Marylia Kelley 381 TriValley CAREs 5 STAFF REPORT ON CASE STUDY OF PLUTONIUM 395 INJECTIONS 6 Gregg Gerken 7 STAFF REPORT ON CONTEMPORARY ETHICS POLICIES 403 AND PRACTICES 8 Johnathan Moreno 9 STAFF REPORT ON INSTITUTIONAL CASE STUDY 459 SELECTION 10 Donald Weightman 11 DAY 3 OPENING REMARKS 487 Ruth Faden 12 REPORTS FROM SUBCOMMITTEES (Continued): 13 REMEDIES 489 Ken Feinberg 14 INTERNATIONAL RELEASES AND EXPOSURES/ 505 15 EXPERIMENTS OF OPPORTUNITIES 16 Nancy Oleinick and Duncan Thomas 17 DISCUSSION OF INTERIM REPORT 525 18 19 20 21 22 23 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 164 1 BEFORE THE 2 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RADIATION EXPERIMENTS 3 MEETING NUMBER 7 4 Public hearing was held pursuant to 5 Notice at a conference room of the San Francisco 6 Press Club, 555 Post Street, San Francisco, 7 California, USA, on the 12th day of October, 1994, 8 commencing at 8:11 a.m. PT. 9 Present: Ruth R. Faden, Chair; Dan 10 Guttman; Susan E. Lederer; Ruth Macklin; Lois L. 11 Norris; Nancy Oleinick, Henry D. Royal; Philip K. 12 Russell; Mary Ann Stevenson; Duncan thomas; Reed V. 13 Tuckson. 14 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 15 OPENING REMARKS: 16 THE CHAIR: Could I ask the committee 17 member to come to the table so we could begin the 18 meeting? The committee members please come to the 19 table, and the Executive Director. 20 All right, I'm going to try this again. 21 Could all committee members please come to the table 22 so we can begin? All Right. 23 Good morning. I guess we need to 24 begin. We have so much we want to accomplish and we 25 have so little time I fear that we not lose even a 1-800-435-2469 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 164 1 minute. 2 Okay, here we come. We can get going. 3 DR. TUCKSON: I was here all the time. 4 What do you mean? 5 THE CHAIR: All right, he's here. Let 6 me welcome everyone to our second day of the seventh 7 meeting of the Subcommittee on Human Radiation 8 Experiments. We are all really, I guess the word is 9 "excited." 10 We are all looking forward to this 11 morning. It's a very special time for us. 12 The reason why we came to San Francisco 13 was to give as wide a range of people as possible an 14 opportunity to speak to us. We know we have people in 15 the audience who have not had an, a chance to 16 observe our meeting in the past because they've been 17 held in D.C. 18 Yesterday I did a quick review of the 19 committee, and Dan says we should do it again, so 20 we're going to do it again because I always do what 21 he says. 22 MR. GUTTMAN: Twenty-two percent of the 23 time. 24 THE CHAIR: So those of you, we say 25 more or less the same thing as yesterday, and this is 1-800-425-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 165 1 minute. 2 Okay, here we come. We can get going. 3 DR. TUCKSON: I was here all the time. 4 What do you mean? 5 THE CHAIR: All right, he's here. Let 6 me welcome everyone to our second day of the seventh 7 meeting of the Subcommittee on Human Radiation 8 Experiments. We are all really, I guess the word is 9 "excited." 10 We are all looking forward to this 11 morning. It's a very special time for us. 12 The reason why we came to San Francisco 13 was to give as wide a range of people as possible an 14 opportunity to speak to us. We know we have people 15 in the audience who have not had an, a chance to 16 observe our meetings in the past because they've been 17 held in D.C. 18 Yesterday I did a quick review of the 19 committee, and Dan says we should do it again, so 20 we're going to do it again because I always do what 21 he says. 22 MR. GUTTMAN: Twenty-two percent of the 23 time. 24 THE CHAIR: So those of you, we say 25 more or less the same thing as yesterday, and this is 1-800-425-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 166 1 to my colleagues at the table, but this is for you 2 with whom we are meeting for the first time. 3 Oh, we had a problem yesterday with the 4 audience. Can somebody in the way back tell me, can 5 you hear me? 6 (Whereupon, a response was had.) 7 THE CHAIR: You can? Would you all 8 promise me if at any time you can't hear me, to just 9 shout at me? The worst thing in the world is to be 10 sitting in a room and not be able to hear what's 11 going on. 12 So please tell us if at any point the 13 audio becomes not of good enough quality to 14 understand what's going on. Please let us know 15 immediately and we will do whatever we can to, to 16 make it available. 17 Also, we know that this morning, of 18 course, is public comment. For those of you who stay 19 with us, as we know, the afternoon, I mean, we 20 continue with deliberations. 21 I know it's difficult to kind of come 22 midstream and kind of follow a committee's processes 23 when a committee's been going though this for over, 24 a little over half year. We'll try to explain what's 25 going on as it's going on, but we'll try to explain 1-800-425-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 167 1 the best we can to make it plain what the agenda is, 2 what we're trying to accomplish. 3 And that's kind of my responsibility. 4 I'll do the best I can. And again, at break or 5 otherwise if there are problems figuring out what is 6 this committee trying to do, please let the staff 7 know and we'll try to explain what is going on a 8 little more clearly. 9 Okay, by way of overview we are a 10 federally constituted advisory committee. We are 11 called the Committee on Human Radiation Experiments. 12 We are chartered under the Federal 13 Advisory Committees Act, and I say that because by 14 virtue of the way we are created we are, I believe 15 the phrase is "an exercise in open government." We 16 must have all our deliberations in the public. 17 We welcome the responsibility, and we 18 see it as a major responsibility on our part to make 19 our deliberations as open and viable to everyone who 20 has an interest in us. And equally important, we 21 need to hear from everyone who has an interest in our 22 processes. 23 So we are very keen to hear from 24 everybody who things they have something to 25 contribute to the charges before us. We realize that 1-800-425-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 168 1 there are difficulties, both with making, find the 2 time and the resources to come to the meetings that 3 we've called. And also unfortunately we have limited 4 time in our public context, and I want to talk a 5 little bit about that in just a few minutes. 6 But we really do welcome written 7 material from people, telephone calls, videotapes, 8 audiotapes. We will take information from people in 9 whatever form they would like to make available to 10 us, and our staff is dedicated to making that 11 possible. 12 I don't want to take any more time 13 than, with this than I have to because we have so 14 much to accomplish, but basically our charges are 15 multiple. We have an obvious basic responsibility to 16 make available as much and as large of articles of 17 information as possible about the nature and extent 18 of human radiation experiments in the period, 19 conducted roughly in the period 1944 to 1974. 20 We also have the charge to look at the 21 status of the human radiation experiments 22 contemporaneous, happening through 1993, so we have a 23 part of our task, which is look at continuing 24 research currently underway in both cases, for both 25 historical cases and the current situation. 1-800-425-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 169 1 We have a charge to look at the ethics 2 of the work that is being conducted, to look at 3 standards for evaluating both past and present in 4 terms of ethical acceptability. 5 We have a charge to determine whether 6 and to what extent there is any government liability 7 or responsibility for any harms or wrongs that people 8 may have experienced as a result of human radiation 9 experimentations. We also have a charge to make 10 recommendations with respect to remedies for any 11 wrongs or harms that may have been done. 12 And finally, we have a charge to take 13 what we have learned about the past and what we are 14 learning about the present, combine that information 15 and make rem-, use those findings for making 16 recommendations for the future so as to minimize the 17 likelihood that future research involving ionizing 18 radiation and human subjects raises ethical concerns. 19 So, at our core we are an ethics committee. 20 We have learned right in the beginning 21 how difficult it is to find out information about 22 experiments that were conducted in the past. There's 23 this big, hugh part of our task. 24 We have had great successes with the 25 cooperation of the agencies, but obviously there's 1-800-425-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 170 1 still a lot to unpack and discover. One of our major 2 legacies we hope will be the availability of documents 3 to the general public as a result of our committee's 4 coming into existence that perhaps would not be 5 available to the public otherwise. 6 We are, as I mentioned, fundamentally 7 concerned with the ethics of the research that we 8 review. We understand the complexities with respect to 9 evaluating the health risks associated with 10 radiation, the, particularly the, the, the range of 11 opinions with health risks associated 12 with low-dose radiation. 13 We are open to all points of view on 14 that question. We are trying to understand as much to 15 as we possibly can, but I want to emphasize that our 16 charge is not to set health or safety standards. 17 That's not a responsibility of this committee. 18 We are, of course, essentially 19 concerned with the questions of risk and harm, 20 because those are central to questions of ethics, you 21 see. If people have been put to risk of harm, then 22 there has to be some good justification for doing so 23 and we need to understand all of that as a piece. 24 But we also recognize that it is 25 possible that there can be ethical wrongs in the face 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 171 1 of very low-risk harm, and we are equally concerned 2 with looking at questions of consent, for example, 3 even where the risk of harm was quite low, and with 4 the selection of subjects, even if the risk of harm 5 is quite low. 6 As I said, there can be great wrongs if 7 certain groups of people are disproportionally used 8 or exploited, even if what they are exposed to it 9 inherently not terribly risky. Of course, if there 10 is a risk of harm, that raises increasing or more 11 intense concern. But it's a complex relationship and 12 we just want to keep everything in, in perspective. 13 That's, by way of background I thought 14 we should take this minute to diffuse the formality, 15 and I thought we could just all go around the panel 16 so you can know who we are before you come sit down, 17 if people wouldn't mind, before you -- 18 DR. THOMAS: I'm Dr. Thomas from the 19 Department of Preventive Medicine at the University 20 of Southern California, and I represent the general 21 field of epidemiologies. 22 DR. MACKLIN: My name's Ruth Macklin, 23 and I'm a bioethicist in the Department of 24 Epidemiology and Social Medicine at Albert Einstein 25 College of Medicine, Bronx. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 171 1 of very low-risk harm, and we are equally concerned 2 with looking at questions of consent, for example, 3 even where the risk of harm was quite low, and with 4 the selection of subjects, even if the risk of harm 5 is quite low. 6 As I said, there can be great wrongs if 7 certain groups of people are disproportionally used 8 or exploited, even if what they are exposed to is 9 inherently not terribly risky. Of course, if there 10 is a risk of harm, that raises increasing or more 11 intense concern. But it's a complex relationship and 12 we just want to keep everything in, in perspective. 13 That's, by way of background I thought 14 we should take this minute to diffuse the formality, 15 and I thought we could just all go around the panel 16 so you can know who we are before you come sit down, 17 if people wouldn't mind, before you --. 18 DR. THOMAS: I'm Dr. Thomas from the 19 Department of Preventive Medicine at the University 20 of Southern California, and I represent the general 21 field of epidemiologies. 22 DR. MACKLIN: My name's Ruth Macklin, 23 and I'm a bioethicist in the Department of 24 Epidemiology and Social Medicine at Albert Einstein 25 College of Medicine, Bronx. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 172 1 My name is Susan Lederer. I'm a 2 historian of medicine and teacher in the Department 3 of Humanities at Penn State University. 4 DR. RUSSELL: Phil Russell from the 5 Department of International Health, Johns Hopkins. I 6 do infectious disease research. 7 DR. STEVENSON: Mary Ann Stevenson, 8 professor of radiation oncology at the Joint Center 9 of Radiation Therapy, Department of Radiation 10 Oncology, Boston, Massachusetts. 11 MS. MASTROIANNI: I'm Anna Mastroianni, 12 Associate Director on the staff of the Advisory 13 Committee. 14 DR. FADEN: And I'm the Chair of the 15 Advisory Committee, and my background is in health 16 policy, management, and ethics. 17 MR. GUTTMAN: Dan Guttman. I'm the 18 Executive Director to the Advisory Committee. My 19 background is in law, so I think that's not 20 bioethics. 21 DR. OLEINICK: I'm Nancy Oleinick. I'm 22 a professor of radiation and biochemistry at Case 23 Western Reserve University in Cleveland. 24 DR. ROYAL: My name is Henry Royal. 25 I'm Associate Director of the Division of Nuclear. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 173 1 Medicine, Mallinckrodt Institute, and Professor of 2 Radiology in the Department of Radiology at 3 Washington University School of Medicine. 4 MS. NORRIS: My name is Lois Norris. 5 I'm a retired vice-president of the Omaha National 6 Bank, Omaha, Nebraska. I'm a citizens' 7 representative on this committee. 8 DR. TUCKSON: My name is Reed Tuckson. 9 I'm the president of the Charles R. Drew University 10 of Medicine and Science in south-central Los Angeles. 11 I'm an internist, and my background is in public 12 health. 13 THE CHAIR: Thank you. That's a little 14 bit about who we are, and we have three members who 15 are not with us: Ken Feinberg, who's expected 16 shortly, who is a lawyer; and Pat King, also a law 17 professor, who will not be with us; and I'm sorry, 18 we're missing four, Eli Glatstein, who's a therapist 19 from Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; and Jay 20 Katz, who is a psychiatrist and bioethicist from Yale 21 Law School. But Ken is expected to join us shortly. 22 Okay, let's take a couple of minutes to 23 tell you the dilemma we face together. The problem 24 is this: We don't have a lot of time and we want to 25 hear from everybody. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 174 1 And we came up with this system, which 2 is offensive on its face, so we want to just 3 acknowledge its offensiveness and see how it works. 4 Here's what we thought. 5 We thought if we could give every 6 speaker ten minutes, ideally five minutes to make a 7 presentation and five minutes for the Committee to 8 ask questions, that would be ideal. It's it's our 9 experience from the open sessions that we have had in 10 our D.C. meeting that the most important time in fact 11 often is when the Committee asks its questions with 12 you. We want to leave that up to each speaker as to 13 how he would like to use your time. 14 We have a little device here which is a 15 timer, -- this is the part that's offensive -- and 16 it's set for five minutes. It will flash yellow 17 after four minutes have gone, and then at the 18 five-minute point it starts to flash red, so that's 19 to help the speaker realize that the five minutes is 20 coming to an end. 21 If you would like to continue we'll 22 keep track of the next five minutes. What we might 23 find is that there would be little or no time for the 24 Committee to ask you questions. 25 We really don't know how best to do 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 175 1 this, but we're going to try it this way. And also 2 we would like to beg your indulgence, those of you 3 who are speaking first. 4 We're really concerned about fairness 5 to the people who are at the end of the list, so that 6 if we are too relaxed about being mindful of the time 7 for the initial speakers, we're very concerned that 8 the speakers at the end will be very short-changed. 9 We want to emphasize that we realize 10 that several of you, perhaps all of you have a great 11 deal of additional information that you can provide 12 us, and we have staff available. 13 If there's a way for staff to make 14 themselves apparent? 15 (Whereupon, a response was had.) 16 THE CHAIR: We' don't have one section, 17 but they're around in the front row, and everyone 18 over on the side there are Advisory Committee staff 19 available to met with you immediately after your 20 comment if you want to arrange for a mechanism for us 21 to get additional information from you. We will 22 facilitate that every way we can. 23 We can Xerox materials for you or you 24 can Xerox them and send them to us. We'll do 25 whatever is necessary so that you can get to us the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 176 1 information that you think is important. 2 And we have learned a lot in 3 documentation that has been provided to us by members 4 of the public. So we see this as a very major source 5 of information to us. 6 So please remember when you're feeling 7 compressed, that you don't have enough time to say 8 everything you want to say to us, that this is not 9 your only chance to do it. This is your only chance 10 to do it perhaps orally to the whole Committee, but 11 staff will be available to meet with you at any time, 12 and committee members are also approachable at the 13 break for some discussion. 14 But the key thing is you, if you have 15 additional information that you would like to make 16 available to us, please find staff at any point 17 during the day and they will find a way to work 18 together to get that available to us. 19 Okay. Now, in case there is any person 20 here -- 21 Where is Kris? Kris is right there. 22 In case there is any speaker here who 23 has not yet checked in with Kris, would you please do 24 so? We're keeping a record of that so Kris can chart 25 people. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 177 1 All right, we've already started 2 considerably behind schedule but that is our problem, 3 not yours. Let us begin with, with, is Ms. Nancy 4 Lynch with us this morning? It looks like she is. 5 Good morning, Mrs. Lynch. 6 MS. LYNCH: Good morning. 7 THE CHAIR: Good morning. Thank you 8 for coming to join us. 9 PRESENTATION BY NANCY LYNCH: 10 MS. LYNCH: Thank you for scheduling 11 this time for public testimony. My name is Nancy 12 Lynch, and I have come from Santa Barbara, 13 California, to testify. 14 My husband, Stephen K. Lynch, was a 15 participant while in the Army in atmospheric tests in 16 Nevada, a series called Operation Teapot. from 17 February to May, 1955. He was in the Army. 18 His unit, Battery C, the Three-hundred 19 Fifty-second Field Artillery Battalion, Observation, 20 participated in 11 atomic tests in Project 40.18, 21 location of atomic bursts. The quote from Page 58 in 22 "Operation Teapot, 1955, U.S. Atmospheric Nuclear 23 Weapons Tests, Nuclear Test Personnel Review," "The 24 Troop Test Program was designed to demonstrate and 25 test military tactics, techniques, and doctrine 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 178 1 developed for use with nuclear weapons." 2 So he was in the military and did 3 receive tests. His unit was permanently stationed at 4 Camp Desert Rock for the duration of the series. 5 He participated in 11 tests doing sound 6 ranging, and was used at times in the observer 7 trenches. There are no radiation records for Camp 8 Desert Rock personnel. 9 He died of massive cancer of the 10 abdomen in 1987. My application to the Veteran's 11 Administration for widow's benefits have been denied 12 and has been on appeal for a number of years. 13 During the process of preparing my 14 appeal I studied the Defense Nuclear Agency's 15 official history of Operation Teapot, 1955. In that 16 history, on Page 200 of the "Nuclear Test Personnel 17 Review," an example with data is given of a dose 18 reconstruction, but no calculations are shown. 19 My husband's dose has been 20 reconstructed, so I wanted to validate this process. 21 I took the sample to physicist Walter Kohn, the 22 founding director of the National Science 23 Foundation's Institute of Theoretical Physics at the 24 University of California at Santa Barbara. 25 He recalculated the Government's data 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-573 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 179 1 as it was given in the document, and found much 2 higher radiation dosage than the Government's 3 calculations. I believe this question the 4 Government's methodology in all such calculations. 5 Until now this reconstruction has been 6 buried in the Veteran's Administration files, and I 7 have come here to present it to you hoping you will 8 investigate the findings and the Government's 9 methodology, and take appropriate action. 10 And I appreciate the opportunity to 11 appear before you, and I have a packet, the 12 reconstruction, the data, and a lot of the 13 information that I have talked about. 14 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms. 15 Lynch. And we appreciate your presenting this in 16 such an organized, accessible way. 17 MS. LYNCH: I've never testified like 18 this before, so I needed as much as I could in front 19 of me. 20 THE CHAIR: You know, I've never 21 chaired a committee such as this before, so the two 22 of us are kind of together in that this is hard to 23 do. And we appreciate it. 24 You've given us opportunity to answer 25 questions, so I'd like to open the floor -- 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-573 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 180 1 MS. LYNCH: I think I'd like to say one 2 other thing. 3 THE CHAIR: Sure. Of course. 4 MS. LYNCH: I think the most important 5 thing that you should address is that the major 6 victim in radiation experiments is the truth. If you 7 do not be clear in your own process, you will never 8 find the truth. 9 There are many, many victims of 10 radiation, and the most important thing is to stop 11 the process of creating more. And I don't think our 12 government is willing to do that yet, because I hear 13 of the idea of new weapons systems. 14 I think after you hear everyone's tale 15 of victimization, it's, the idea is to tell the 16 Government to stop doing it, -- 17 THE CHAIR: We all appreciate what 18 you're saying. 19 MS. LYNCH: -- and, and look to your 20 own committee to make sure. So many times the 21 oversight of contractors comes from the same group of 22 people. Look to yourself to be sure you're free and 23 clear. 24 I also hear that there should be some 25 victim representation. I don't know about that, but 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 181 1 I'm glad you're letting us testify. 2 THE CHAIR: We, we couldn't do our work 3 otherwise. 4 MS. LYNCH: Uh-huh. Okay. 5 THE CHAIR: That goes without, goes 6 without saying. 7 If we could hear some other questions? 8 Duncan? 9 DR. THOMAS: I'd be interested in 10 hearing a little bit about your experience with the 11 VA claim. You said it was denied, and you said it's 12 still under appeal; is that right? 13 MS. LYNCH: Yes, it's still under 14 appeal. I think it was sent to Washington. It, it's 15 been there for a little over a year. 16 DR. THOMAS: When the VA denied the 17 claim were you told it was based on the dose estimate 18 for the cancer? 19 MS. LYNCH: They said it was the type, 20 based on the type of cancer. 21 DR. THOMAS: Did you provide for them 22 this information on the -- 23 MS. LYNCH: Yes, I did. I did. 24 DR. THOMAS: And do you know whether 25 that was ever accepted? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 182 1 MS. LYNCH: They never gave me any 2 information at all. They just denied the claim. 3 DR. THOMAS: The reason for asking this 4 is tomorrow we're scheduled to hear briefly by Ken 5 Feinberg on remedies, and in particular some 6 discussion may lead into some discussion about how 7 the present compensation system is, is working. 8 And in the materials provided to us it 9 discusses a little bit about what is expected of the 10 victims and the dose reconstruction if the truth were 11 challenged. 12 MS. LYNCH: Uh-huh. 13 DR. THOMAS: The, the, the Military 14 insists it was, and this sort of regimen that you 15 went through is something that I can imagine that not 16 that many veterans would be in a position to do. 17 MS. LYNCH: No, I was lucky to know of 18 this physicist. The dose estimate they gave my 19 husband said that he was in only one test. That's in 20 your material that I've given you. 21 They did not take into account that he 22 was, they said he was in one observer trench test, 23 and they did not take into account any of the time 24 that he was stationed there, nor during the sound 25 ranging. And people in this unit that, when we were 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 183 1 still in contact, remember being in it, too. 2 My husband did not talk about this very 3 much at all. It was not anything he wanted to talk 4 about. 5 AND a lot of the material that I have 6 that is from him is from letters he wrote to his 7 parents. I did bring one of the letters, which I 8 would read to you if I have time. 9 But as to the cancer sitting, which is 10 what you're really asking about, -- 11 DR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 DR. LYNCH: -- he, he had cancer in the 13 whole abdomen region and it included some of the 14 sites that are listed in the presumptive areas -- 15 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. 16 MS. LYNCH: -- for, for cancer 17 radiation. 18 And, but you know what the VA does? 19 They define everything, and this is another way that 20 the truth can be circumvented. 21 They, they will, at, they first said he 22 had, oh, a certain kind of cancer, histio-, 23 histiocytoma, something like that. I can't remember 24 right now. Anyway, if that's not carcinogenic it, it 25 is labeled as not being compensatable after one year, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 184 1 in the general rules of the VA. 2 They, at first they completely ignored 3 that it was cancerous. In fact, when I gave my 4 testimony I, they, they changed, they changed things 5 and I had to, to write back and tell them that it was 6 wrong, after all that material in the Bay Area here. 7 But I did not bring it today, but it 8 was, it's been a constant correction, what they've 9 said. And if, if I hadn't been somewhat educated and 10 aware, and had just taken the denial, because that's, 11 they just give you a denial, that would have been it. 12 THE CHAIR: Mrs. Lynch, we're at the 13 end of time but I want to give Reed a chance to ask 14 another question. 15 DR. TUCKSON: I tell you what: Because 16 you are out of time I'd like you to really sit with 17 staff and help us gather more information. Number 18 one, if you could share the diagnosis, the kind of 19 carcinoma? 20 MS. LYNCH: Yes, I could. 21 DR. TUCKSON: Yes, we would really 22 appreciate that. The, the second thing is you said 23 something that is of interest, and that is in 24 addition to the tests, the initial test that your 25 husband participated in, he also was part of other 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 185 1 things, and sounds like it was part of his job that 2 he was exposed as well. 3 MS. LYNCH: Yes, he was. It, it was, 4 uh-huh. 5 DR. TUCKSON: It is that type of 6 exposure in addition to the so-called test that would 7 be of interest to us, and if you could get with the 8 members of the staff, they raised their hands, you 9 can see them again, because we don't have time now, I 10 think it would be useful for us to try to get some of 11 that. 12 And thank you for coming. 13 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms. 14 Lynch. 15 And you know what I think would be very 16 helpful? If the staff would move your chairs so you 17 were sitting over there, allow people to find you. 18 Thank you very much. Thank you. If 19 you could follow up on these requests, that would be 20 great. 21 MS. LYNCH: Will you have, do you have 22 staff that can do, check into these calculations and 23 verify whether they are correct or not, and that the 24 Government's calculations --- I know they sent me 25 something which just said, "Yes, it's okay," so I, I 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 186 1 would like to get something from the Committee 2 eventually. 3 THE CHAIR: I understand. I'm not sure 4 how far our resources will stretch, but that's the 5 key question. 6 MR. GUTTMAN: Let me make a comment. 7 We have people like you who obviously have a lot of 8 truth to ell; very difficult time telling it. 9 What we would like to do, if possible, 10 because we do work very closely with the VA and 11 Defense Department, part of the effort, as well as 12 outside of it, we'd like to see if we can focus on 13 some cases that we can bring to them so we can work 14 through the system. 15 You know, is it that nobody's answering 16 the telephone? Is it all their fault? I guess that 17 would be the efforts. 18 And Kris Crotty over there, who's been 19 sitting against the wall, has been, if we can get 20 some samples instead of just a test case, "Here's the 21 problem. It's the missing records," or, "The 22 reconstruction problem," and work it through 23 So when you all bring these cases we 24 can see if we can bring some kind of test case and 25 sit down and get you involved and see what's the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 187 1 problem. Is it you've got the wrong person and 2 that's the thing? 3 And if you can bear with us we'll try 4 to do that kind of process. 5 MS. LYNCH: But you don't have the 6 facilities to do the tests and get the -- 7 MR. GUTTMAN: Well, Duncan can answer 8 that. 9 THE CHAIR: I think we'll have to do 10 that by the staff. We're completely out of time. 11 Thank you very much, Mrs. Lynch. We 12 appreciate it. 13 Oh, okay. We, is Mrs. Jackie Maxwell 14 here? 15 Welcome, Mrs. Maxwell. And you're from 16 Menlo Park? 17 MS. MAXWELL: Yes. 18 THE CHAIR: Do you have that right? 19 Good. 20 PRESENTATION BY JACKIE MAXWELL: 21 MS. MAXWELL: Ladies and Gentlemen and 22 members of the distinguished committee, it's a 23 pleasure to be here. I've recently testified in 24 front of the Senate Foresight Committee in 25 Washington, D.C. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 188 1 I felt like, setting (sic) there in 2 August thinking it will be 50 years next month since 3 all of this holocaust began, and it's taken us all 4 this time to get this time and this place to address 5 the most important thing in the world, the genetic 6 defects you caused by ionizing radiation. 7 And I think everybody knows, especially 8 this man knows birth defects are the clearest 9 examples of the variation in basic building blocks 10 that affect all human beings, and potentially all 11 human things. 12 And since World War II we have had over 13 ten million men and women working in the birth 14 defects, ranging from minor to the very worst, and 15 they're a medical challenge all over the world. This 16 means we have 16 percent of all deliveries now have 17 some form of birth defects, and I think people just 18 don't realize what we're addressing here. 19 I'm a member of the NARS Association. 20 We have a 7,000-member data bank. Twenty percent of 21 our radiation survivors have some form of genetic 22 defects. 23 We have 450 atomic veterans from the 24 Hiroshima and Nagasaki area, and, out of the 18 25 million, and 107 of them have genetically-impaired 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 189 1 offspring. The population as a whole is 35 percent, 2 and here we have this. The numbers are astronomical. 3 My husband was one of those atomic 4 veterans, and he was a prisoner of war in Japan. H 5 survived the Bataan Death March and sinking one of 6 the Maru ships. 7 He went, he was, he was tortured, 8 beaten, and when the atomic bomb was loosed he was in 9 one of the camps, one of the Nagoya camps, the 12 10 camps between Nagoya and Hiroshima. And when the 11 atomic bomb was detonated they witnessed this 12 mushroom cloud, and three days later they suffered 13 this black rain. 14 Three days later they were sent to the 15 outskirts of Hiroshima, and 12, there were two teams 16 of 12 apiece that were sent in. The largest men in 17 these camps were sent. They had to get the most 18 there because the epicenter of the bomb was where the 19 hospitals were, and they couldn't get the people in 20 and out. 21 And so they were in there clearing out 22 the debris. They were in tanks for three days at a 23 time. 24 They had no protective gear. They ate 25 and drank from those seven rivers surrounding the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 190 1 area, and they ingested their rice. They had a half 2 a cup of rice a day, and the water. 3 And he said after the first tow days 4 they had a rash all over them. They were nauseous 5 most of the time. 6 He carried that rash, the etiology 7 unknown, to his death; never knew what it was. 8 Raised up like a waffle iron. 9 When he came home he was sterile. Two 10 years later he was all right and we had our first 11 child, and she was born with a, hydrocephalic 12 problems, spinal problems, anal problems. Well, 13 those are the things we knew about until after we had 14 had post-autopsy. There was a multiplicity of 15 problems. 16 Of course, when you have one you 17 usually have more than one, and they told us this was 18 such, well, I know it was such a shocking thing. 19 Most of the doctors had never seen a child of this 20 defect. 21 We had people from all over the western 22 states. They said, "It will never happen again. 23 It's when you two black genes come together. Once 24 in a lifetime. Will never happen again." 25 We lost her in 13 months. They said, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 191 1 "Go ahead and have another." 2 Well, in the interim we took her to 3 some of the best doctors we could find, just to say, 4 "We know we're, she's not going to live very long, 5 but we would like to know that to do to maker her 6 comfortable." 7 And our response was, "Take this," not 8 "this baby," not "this child," not "Paulette." "Take 9 this baby and put it in an institution and forget you 10 ever had it." This, this was the type of, of medical 11 help we received in those days. 12 We talked to everybody and they said, 13 "Oh, this couldn't happen again." So we went ahead 14 and had another little baby about a year and a-half 15 later, and a little boy. 16 He had almost identically the same 17 thing. Now, one, maybe one in five million of those, 18 those anomalies, but two are astronomical. 19 And so my doctor had already tested Rh 20 factors, but that was all. My husband, he said, 21 "Well, I want to hear all about your childhood, all 22 about your disease and everything. I know about 23 Jackie. Jackie's checked out." 24 So they went through, and the minute he 25 told them he was in Japan he said, "Were you there 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 192 1 when the atomic bomb was released? Did you eat and 2 drink there? 3 "Yes." 4 He said, he leaned back in his chair 5 and he said, "Well, there you have it." 6 He said, "What do you mean, there I 7 have it?" 8 He said, "If you two were to have ten 9 children, nine of them would have an anomaly. That's 10 my considered opinion." 11 And we said, "what are you talking 12 about?" 13 And he said, "Let me put it this way." 14 He said, "I'll give you an example. When I was in 15 medical school there were seven of us that went at 16 the same time. When we went into our radiation 17 time," he said, "I had mononucleosis I couldn't go. 18 The other six went. 19 "The, during the training they had 20 quite a radical accident in the radiation lab and 21 they were all radiated." And he said, "Within eight 22 years five of them had died from some form of cancer. 23 Four of them had children with genetic defects." 24 And he said, "If a radiation accident 25 in a laboratory can product this, think what we've 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 193 1 unleashed with this atomic bomb." He said, "Now 2 you're not going to get anybody else to admit it. 3 I'm one percent of the medical community." 4 This is 1955. He said, "I want you to 5 go to other doctors." 6 They said, "That's ridiculous." 7 We had Number Three. She was perfectly 8 formed. She had seven anomalies. 9 We had Number Four, my only normal 10 child out of six. 11 And my fifth one, she lived, my, my 12 third and my fifth lived exactly 40 hours apiece, 13 beautifully formed but absolutely filled with a 14 multiplicity of defects. 15 And my sixth was such, it was a 16 six-month, well, six-and-a-half-month pregnancy, but 17 so disintegrated you couldn't even tell what it was. 18 And so, of course, we, in spite of our 19 religion, we, we adhered to the fact that our doctor 20 was right. 21 And in the interim, before I mentioned 22 that he told us that time, he said, "Ill be willing 23 to predict within 19 years you'll have some form of 24 cancer." 25 Nineteen years and one month from that Human Radiation Experiments/SF 194 1 date my husband had multiple myeloma. Of the 14 men 2 who were sent in on detail, eight of them died of 3 cancer-related deaths and 14 of them had multiple 4 myeloma. 5 This doesn't sound so strange, except 6 multiple myeloma is only one-eighth of all cancers. 7 Now, when you give those kinds of statistics, that's a 8 astronomical. 9 And they would not even consider the 10 fact that his exposure had any correlation between, 11 between our, our babies' defects and what had 12 happened to him until this last tow years. Now 13 Government has, recognizes it. 14 I sat on a panel with people from, from 15 Gulf War, Gulf War, from Korea, in Viet Nam. We sat 16 there with identical cases, identical 17 There were, there were some of these 18 cases, and they had had their testing, genetic 19 testing done. They were all normal. 20 The, I was one of the lucky ones, 21 because I'm a genealogist and I've got case histories 22 all the way back, 200 years on one said, about 600 on 23 the other, very meticulous keeping as far as medical 24 facts and figures went. So I knew. Most people 25 don't know. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 195 1 But these veterans have all gone on 2 with absolutely nothing materially wrong with them, 3 and yet they all, they had children that were normal 4 before they went to serve, and after they came back 5 one child after another was affected. 6 THE CHILD: Misuse -- 7 MS. MAXWELL: And so here we sat, four 8 or five generations apart, facing the same thing, and 9 no one doing anything about it. And at least with 10 the Veteran's Committee they said, "we do realize 11 what we've done. We've sent our servicemen to 12 unknown fields, unprotected, and haven't acknowledged 13 it. We want to do something about it." 14 And I thought, "well, finally we're 15 addressing this. We're going to get someplace." 16 There is no problem in place yet for 17 the veterans and these children and for the third 18 generation. We're seeing second and third generation 19 in our veterans of these multiplicity of genetic 20 defects, and we can't do anything else at all because 21 the Government won't set in place a program or a 22 study of series, a series of studies for genetic 23 defects and a study of atomic veterans. 24 Then we should seriously consider 25 waiving the sovereign immunity and getting down to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 196 1 brass tacks. Provide some way for these families to 2 be taken care of. 3 And I feel like, in speaking for all of 4 these people, I, I, I came home feeling so good about 5 what they had told us. And as I'm sitting on the 6 plane. There were two gentlemen from the scientific 7 community sitting across from me and they were 8 talking. 9 And I heard one say to the other, 10 "Well, I wouldn't dare testify if I were in front of 11 the Government. They would kick me out." He said, 12 "I think all of this with the Gulf War veterans is 13 simply post-traumatic stress." 14 I wanted to hit him right over the 15 head. I thought, "Post-traumatic stress presents all 16 of these 2,000 categories of genetic disabilities, 17 a-third of which we can't diagnose? So how can we 18 treat them?" 19 I had a geneticist tell me, "I can 20 spend a life on one." 21 THE CHAIR: Well, we thank you very 22 much. You've given us a, a great deal to think 23 about, and I don't know how to express our feelings 24 about all that you've experienced. We appreciate it. 25 MS. MAXWELL: Well, I appreciate the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 197 1 fact, I mean, the fact that the Committee exists. 2 And whatever you can do that is productive for all of 3 these people, let me tell you, the souls of those 4 unborn will bless you yet. 5 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mrs. 6 Maxwell. 7 Our next speaker is Mr. Vernon Sousa, 8 if he's in the audience. (8:51 a.m. PT) 9 MR. SOUSA: Thank you. 10 THE CHAIR: Just, in order to just 11 facilitate things, if, Mr. Sousa is our speaker 12 currently, but the next person to give testimony is 13 Mrs. Gwynne Burroughs, if she's available to be the 14 next person up. 15 Mr. Sousa, you're from San Francisco? 16 MR. SOUSA: Yes, I am. 17 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much for 18 coming before us. 19 PRESENTATION BY VERNON SOUSA: 20 Mr. SOUSA: Yes, I was raised here in 21 fact. I was raised by the airport. 22 When I was 17 years old, right here. I 23 was in the Air Force for 17 months at Monsanto. I 24 was transferred to a site at Killeen, Texas, which 25 was under, was a Defense Atomic Nuclear War, it was 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 198 1 Atomic Support Agency where they had a -- my throat's 2 dry -- underground tunnel system with assembly plants 3 in them. 4 We were in the assembly plant's storage 5 and maintenance, and inspection of the bombs. Late 6 '50 at the General Travis Air Force Base was atomic 7 weapons a bomb exploded in a B-29. Nineteen people 8 died. It was the first part of 1951. 9 I took a bomb from the bunkers at work 10 at Killeen base, drove to Portland and back, and 11 dumped it into a pit. And we unloaded it. 12 I watched them unload 50,000 gallons of 13 gasoline in that pit. By the way, they lit it on 14 fire and 13 minutes later it blew up. 15 To this day that test is denied. It's 16 impossible. They won't talk about it. That might be 17 behind showing that that happened in Fairfield to the 18 safety test to find out how long it would burn before 19 it was out. 20 I was 17 years old and they knew it. 21 And they can, everybody who was involved there. And 22 so all night on the TV they were up there. 23 They should be taken to the Nuremburg 24 trial. They have stole'd everybody's future that was 25 in that test, and I believe when they started with 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 199 1 that plutonium they started down the line with the 2 assembly plant. 3 And you ask them to take the federal 4 boundaries off of radiation. Radiation doesn't know 5 no boundaries. 6 As far as they're concerned I don't 7 exist. I probably have 240 letters up there that 8 admit that i was in the Service, except that I have 9 my service records to show where I was at. 10 I've got 30, I've got 16 illnesses, all 11 secondary to radiation. In the three and a-half 12 years I worked with that project I was in the 13 hospital seven times. I was sick call 35 times. 14 I was not allowed to tell anybody the 15 type of work I did, so absolutely all diagnoses were 16 misdiagnosed. I, I can now say every one was through 17 exposure. They brought back diagnoses of "Unknown." 18 When I got out of the Service I had to 19 sign an oath of secrecy to get out. I never talked 20 about that bomb until 1991 when I got a letter from 21 the VA. 22 You find out I wrote a letter to the 23 Department of Energy and asked for my clearance. 24 They told me the clearance was destroyed in '59, and 25 in '69 my files were destroyed. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 200 1 In '70 to '74 I happened to get a 2 couple of pages out of my file, so I know it wasn't 3 destroyed to this time because a couple of pages 4 hasn't gotten lost. 5 In 1941, I have a document here, it's 6 probably illegal, but I brought a document. It's a 7 secret document from the War Department to Lieutenant 8 General Leslie Groves in 1943, that, to discuss the 9 measures of human radiation, and it was entitled, 10 "The ADAK Materials Military Weapons." 11 And they're talking about radiation in 12 1943, and how they, what it would do to people if we 13 were to send troops in to clean up after we would 14 sacrifice a certain amount of people. 15 We were all sacrificed. We're dying 16 from the inside out, just like a microwave oven. 17 My life's been like a roller-coaster. 18 I fell like -- last year I dropped 50 pounds. I 19 thought I was dead. 20 I think it's not fair to lose your life 21 at that age. I think, where is that? Will I live 22 through tomorrow? 23 I had a doctor at VA tell me I had 24 hyperthyroidism related to the radiation. "Well, at 25 least you don't have cancer." 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 201 1 I got a group doctor out there last 2 week, I think probably 35 to 40 years. He's heard 3 about it. He said I, I'm one of, of all the 4 radiation exposures he's had to treat, I was the 5 worst one. 6 I went out there several years ago. He 7 asked me if I would go back and teach in the classes 8 because they've never seen radiation exposures 9 before. 10 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. 11 Sousa. Please stay. 12 MR. SOUSA: I've got a shot too. 13 THE CHAIR: Would you like a glass? I'm 14 sorry. We should have offered you some water. 15 I'm sorry. 16 DR. TUCKSON: One of the issues that 17 we're interested in is the relationship between the 18 medical care still and the people that work in your 19 industry. You mentioned that when you were often ill 20 in your service days that you were not allowed to 21 discuss the nature of the work that you did. Weren't 22 you going to physicians that were part of the base? 23 MR. SOUSA: No. 24 DR. TUCKSON: How did that work? 25 MR. SOUSA: First time I got ill was at 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 202 1 the base. We had a clinic there. They hospitalized 2 me. 3 I was hospitalized there in November 4 '51, for 16 days, and they had me in emergency for 5 11. That was part of an Army base. 6 Even if they were part of an Army 7 squadron I was not allowed to talk to them. Of 8 course, I didn't think anything of it. 9 If, I have a copy of a document that 10 assigned men to a training class. I was not allowed, 11 if you were tasked next to me I was not allowed to 12 discuss my work, and we were working right next to 13 each other. 14 DR. TUCKSON: But it was, what is your 15 impression; that the physicians on the base would 16 know the nature of your work? 17 MR. SOUSA: Whether they would know, I 18 don't know. The Systems are all there. 19 I have documented all the records I was 20 able to get. A lot of my records are not there, but 21 I was out of the Service and two months before I got 22 discharged they said, "parostitis." 23 Whether this was somebody's idea or 24 what, a private joke, I signed a security oath. They 25 told me if I've got "parostitis" I was due, due to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 203 1 gonorrhea in 1953, and I had to go out to the base 2 hospital to get it treated. 3 I've been at 23 VD tests for urethral 4 discharges I had from 1952 on. They just kept 5 coming. And that, I know, I don't have any benefit 6 beyond that right there, saying I got it in '51. 7 THE CHAIR: Are there any questions for 8 Mr. Sousa? 9 Would you, you mentioned several 10 documents. If you could make them available to the 11 Committee we would be very grateful and we would 12 appreciate it. 13 MR. SOUSA: Yes, sir, I will. 14 THE CHAIR: And also for all the 15 speakers, if you have a statement that you would like 16 entered into the Record, a written statement, if you 17 can give that to staff we'll enter it into the 18 Record. 19 MR. SOUSA: Bear with me. What I first 20 got, these came from an EPA salvage pack, an 21 assessment report that tells about the base. 22 THE CHAIR: That's terrific. 23 MR. SOUSA: Weapons-grad Plutonium-239 24 was obtained in some weapons of this type. 25 I have a letter from Dr. Lesley Smith 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 204 1 (phonetic), he's the, a protocologist at CDC. I sent 2 him some of my records to explain where I've worked. 3 It came back he would not be able to 4 make a conclusion, but it looks like I was exposed to 5 radiation. 6 THE CHAIR: We would be very grateful 7 for copies of this document. 8 I'm sorry, there was one -- 9 MS. NORRIS: You mentioned that your 10 veteran's records were destroyed, or you were told. 11 MR. SOUSA: What? 12 MS. NORRIS: The, what were the 13 circumstances? 14 MR. SOUSA: Anything that had to do 15 with that agency, and the Air Force stone-walled me. 16 I've got a couple of hundred letters telling me write 17 to here, write to there, just like a merry-go-round. 18 And I believe everybody in this room 19 has had the same thing. We cannot get that 20 information. And I do not believe we can get 21 anything. I had two pages in 1984 about this. 22 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. We're 23 very, we're very grateful for your taking the time. 24 MR. SOUSA: You're very welcome. I 25 would like to see the Committee here, if we could 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 205 1 have some representation from the injured, because I 2 do not feel anybody up here, and no offense, can tell 3 you what we are going through unless you experience 4 it. 5 THE CHAIR: Oh, we don't question that. 6 MR. SOUSA: I hope you don't ever have 7 to. 8 THE CHAIR: No, we understand there's 9 some things you can't know unless you experience 10 them. Thank you very much, Mr. Sousa. 11 Our next speaker is Ms. Gwynne 12 Burroughs. 13 Mrs. Burroughs, you're from the 14 community. You come here from Chico, California; is 15 that right? 16 MRS. BURROUGHS: Yes. My name is Mrs. 17 Gwynne Burroughs. 18 THE CHAIR: Oh, I'm sorry. 19 PRESENTATION BY GWYNNE BURROUGHS: 20 MS. BURROUGHS: I was stationed with my 21 family at Sandia Base, which was right next to 22 Monsanto Base outside of Albuquerque, New Mexico, of 23 which Mr. Sousa spoke. 24 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. 25 MS. BURROUGHS: In 1968 I told my 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 206 1 father that I was concerned that the war in Viet Nam 2 might lead to a nuclear confrontation. He said that 3 I was foolish to be worried, because I had already 4 been exposed to radiation, and it didn't hurt me a 5 bit. 6 Stunned, I asked him why he had allowed 7 this to happen to me, and he replied, "It was your 8 duty as an American." 9 From August of 1957, until August of 10 1959, my family and I lived in the officer's housing 11 area on Sandia Base near Albuquerque, New Mexico. My 12 mother has confirmed the Army told my parents that we 13 would be exposed to safe levels of radiation while we 14 lived there. 15 She has since apologized to me for 16 allowing this. She explained that she and my father 17 were caught up in being proud of being part of the 18 cutting edge. 19 My father, Captain Clifford John Hood, 20 M.D., was one of 12 men assigned to the obstetrics 21 department of the Sandia Base Hospital. Sandia Base 22 was an AEC project, and the contractor was AT&T. 23 Members of all branches of the United 24 States Military were assigned to our base, including 25 many special forces such as Navy underwater 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 207 1 demolition experts and Studies and Observation Group, 2 or SOG. 3 My mother became extremely hyperthyroid 4 and was unable to conceive any more children while we 5 lived there. Her doctor at the base hospital put her 6 on special diets, like peanut butter and rye crisp, 7 and played bizarre psychological games with her. He 8 told her she couldn't conceive because of my father's 9 position as a doctor, and that she secretly wanted to 10 be a man. 11 One of our neighbors was also unable to 12 conceive any children and later died of brain cancer. 13 A little girl next door kept falling down and 14 bringing up blood. The doctor at the base hospital 15 told her mother that this was happening because she 16 let her drink Coca-Cola. 17 The men at our base would go away for 18 weeks at a time, and when they returned would be so 19 radioactive that they were not allowed to stay with 20 their families. They were kept in isolation at the 21 base hospital at Sandia Base, or were referred to the 22 Lovelace Clinic, where my mother said they were 23 specialists. 24 During the time that I lived on the 25 Sandia Base another member of the National 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 208 1 Association of Radiation Survivors named Dottie 2 Troxell said that she was used for human experiments 3 at the Lovelace Clinic by doctors from Sandia Base. 4 According to the EPA there were at 5 least two accidents involving radioactive materials 6 at Sandia Base between 1957 and 1959. One accident 7 was the dropping of a bomb which did not detonate, 8 and the other was a crash of a plan carrying 9 plutonium. 10 One time our base was evacuated, after 11 which teams of psychologists interviewed the 12 children. Our housing was placed directly under the 13 flight path of the airstrip, which greatly increased 14 the stress of living on the base. 15 Ours was not the only base where family 16 members were used for experiments. According to the 17 1986 Markey Report, an employee at Los Alamos fed 18 radioactive particles to his wife. 19 I do remember being treated at the 20 Sandia Base hospital, but I don't know why. 21 After we left the base, and as I grew 22 up, my father was my only physician. Once I saw my 23 medical record on his desk and it said I was allergic 24 to sulfa. I did not know this, so I asked him why. 25 He became violently angry and said, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 209 1 "That was a long time ago, and you don't need to 2 know." 3 After I moved away from home he 4 destroyed my medical records. I said, after I moved 5 away from, he destroyed my medical records. 6 I've tried to find some documentation 7 of what happened to me and others at Sandia Base. I 8 sent for my father's military record, but was told it 9 was destroyed in a fire. I believe that there has 10 been tremendous destruction of evidence in this case. 11 While I lived at Sandia Base the 12 Mercury astronauts went through many extreme medical 13 tests at the Lovelace Clinic. Astronaut Pete Conrad 14 said, "It seemed as though they had unlimited funding 15 to try anything they wanted." 16 Astronaut Deke Slayton said, "We were a 17 bunch of well patients being treated by sick 18 doctors." 19 I've brought copies of my statement for 20 you. I've added to this a list of health effects 21 that I've suffered, which are too numerous to go into 22 at this time, and I'd like to give this to you. 23 THE CHAIR: Mrs. Burroughs, thank you 24 very much. 25 Can we have some questions? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 210 1 MS. BURROUGHS: In addition, -- just 2 one more thing. 3 THE CHAIR: Sure. 4 MS. BURROUGHS: I have a document here 5 which proves that there are radioactive materials 6 being handled and used at Sandia Base which might 7 have been the cause of my illnesses as a result of 8 exposure to radioactive pollution. 9 THE CHAIR: Can I ask you how long you 10 were at Sandia? How old were you at the time? 11 MS. BURROUGHS: I was born on January 17, 12 1956. I lived at Sandia Base with my family on 13 Perimeter Road in the officer's housing area from 14 August of 1957 through August of 1959. 15 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 16 Are there other questions for Mrs. 17 Burroughs? 18 DR. ROYAL: Mrs. Burroughs, do you know 19 what levels of radiation the people at Sandia were 20 exposed to? 21 MS. BURROUGHS: No, I don't. My father 22 avoids, he's still living and my mother is living as 23 well, and my father will not speak to me about that. 24 THE CHAIR: Any other questions for 25 Mrs. Burroughs? Yes, Mary Ann. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 211 1 DR. STEVENSON: What illnesses have you 2 suffered? 3 MS. BURROUGHS: Extreme hyperthyroid 4 started at age 17, which left me unconscious for 24 5 hours. I had white rings of fungus that grew on my 6 feet at the age of eight years old. 7 I've had numerous skin rashes. When I 8 was 12 and 14 years old, twice, my feet peeled 9 entirely. The skin just came off of them. 10 I have connective tissue problems. My 11 muscles separate. I've had muscles separate on, in 12 my legs, on my ribs. 13 I have blisters on my eyeballs, 14 multiple layers of blisters that just keep coming out 15 over my eyelid that looks like a yellow jelly fish. 16 It's a hugh blister and then it will pop and drain 17 down my face. 18 I, when I became pregnant with my first 19 child I became, I became hyperthyroid. 20 DR. STEVENSON: Uh-huh. 21 MS. BURROUGHS: I have, as I said, a 22 lot of skin rashes. 23 THE CHAIR: Right, and we have your 24 list at the end of, yeah, which is very helpful, 25 and -- 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 212 1 MS. BURROUGHS: And last but not least 2 certainly are the emotional scars which will be with 3 me for the rest of my life. You can tell I'm 4 shaking. 5 I have had at least five year's of 6 psychotherapy for the post-traumatic stress disorder 7 as a result of the time living at that base. As I 8 said, it was an extremely stressful place to live. 9 THE CHAIR: Mrs. Burroughs, we 10 appreciate the courage it took to have you come and 11 speak before us, and we're grateful for the 12 information you've provided. 13 MS. BURROUGHS: Thank you. 14 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. 15 Our next speaker is Mr. Israel Torres. 16 MR. GUTTMAN: Mrs. Burroughs, if you 17 could talk to one of the staff people, you mentioned 18 the use of Lovelace for the treatment. If you would 19 make sure to talk to one of the staff people about 20 that. 21 Ms. BURROUGHS: Yes, I will. 22 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 23 We just want to alert our speakers 24 here, there are water, there is water and water 25 glasses available if anyone needs to. We'll be, keep 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 213 1 making sure there are clean glasses. 2 Thank you for coming to us, Mr. Torres. 3 We appreciate it. 4 PRESENTATION BY ISRAEL TORRES: 5 MR. TORRES: Good morning, members of 6 the committee, ladies and gentlemen. 7 What I'm going to tell you is a story 8 that happened to me. It's a true story. 9 "So you have been volunteered to 10 participate in the greatest experiment known to man 11 that would help all humanity. You can back off. 12 While you're doing so, I will guarantee you will go 13 to Fort Leavenworth for 20 years," our regiment 14 commander, Colonel Schmuch, told us before we bent to 15 Yucca Flat, Nevada, in 1957. 16 No warning nor any lecture on what was 17 going to happen or what the effects of the 18 experiments would be. 19 My name is Israel Torres, and I reside 20 in the town of Nipomo, California. I am not seeking 21 charity, nor am I looking for pity. 22 I just seek justice, not only for 23 myself, but for all those who participated at the 24 atomic bomb experiments at Yucca Flat during June to 25 August of 1957; justice, and above all, the truth, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 214 1 not only for the participants who are still alive, 2 but for the widows and orphans who have remained 3 behind. 4 In 1957 I was a Platoon Sergeant 5 assigned to the Fourth Marine Corps Provisional 6 Atomic Brigade at Camp Pendleton, California. June 7 through July I participated in three atomic bomb 8 experiments at that time, Priscilla, Diablo, and Hood 9 at Yucca Flats, Nevada. 10 On the morning of June twenty-fourth 11 other sergeants and I were standing on level grounds 12 approximately eight mile from Ground Zero when 13 Priscilla was detonated. Even at this distance the 14 bomb's flats was too hot. We turned our back for a 15 few seconds. 16 The hugh mushrooming cloud began to 17 take shape and a big fireball was rising. This was 18 followed by blinding light, the shake of the ground, 19 and movement. 20 The first warning, the first shock wave 21 hit us without warning and blew our helmets off our 22 heads and threw us against the trucks that had taken 23 us to the sites to witness and detonation of 24 Priscilla. It was followed by a second and third 25 shock wave, again with a tremendous force, followed 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 215 1 by strong winds and blinding light and flying sand. 2 On the morning of June twenty-eighth I 3 led my platoon in the trenches about one mile from 4 Ground Zero to witness Diablo being dropped. Diablo 5 misfired. 6 On the next morning I led my platoon 7 into the same trenches, one mile from Ground Zero, to 8 witnesses Hood, the 77 kiloton atomic bomb, being 9 dropped. During the last few seconds just before 10 Hood was detonated I braced myself against a 11 five-foot by two-and-a-half-food wide trench walls, 12 and I remember that I was perspiring heavily. 13 There was a tremendous loud click which 14 I felt in my body. In a split second there was an 15 enormous loud, deafening blast, and a very blinding 16 light came to view. 17 The ground was shaking furiously. Very 18 strong, hot winds were blowing, and with blinding hot 19 sand. 20 I was thrown from wall to wall in the 21 trench. It felt like a giant vacuum was trying to 22 suck me out, but I fought the suction. 23 I tried to stay in my trench, which by 24 now was caving in and filling with dirt and sand. We 25 had been instructed prior to this blast to remain at 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 216 1 all times in a kneeling position until after the 2 blast and all had calmed down. 3 I said to myself, "To hell with this 4 B.S. I don't want to be buried alive." 5 As I stood up I was suddenly buried to 6 my chest. I tried to get lose when one of the shock 7 waves hit me in the face, knocking me backwards and 8 snapping my head back. 9 My helmet and protective glasses went 10 flying. I looked up and saw directly in front of me 11 the hugh mushroom cloud. 12 I wiped the dust and sand from my face, 13 eyes, and hands. The small blisters were forming. 14 I looked down and covered my eyes with 15 my hands. As I opened them while covered, I saw my 16 own bones lit up. 17 I began to tremble, to shake, and I 18 started to vomit. I heard some of my men screaming 19 and yelling for help. 20 About an hour and a-half later we were 21 approached by our First Sergeant and some men wearing 22 protective clothes. I held roll-call, and two of my 23 men were missing. A search party was sent to look 24 for them, but we couldn't find them. 25 So the next hour I led my platoon at a 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 217 1 slow pace close to Ground Zero. There were melted 2 tanks, trucks, Jeeps, and heavy equipment completely 3 destroyed. 4 The hot wind and sand continued 5 blowing. I heard an aircraft engine flying overhead. 6 I couldn't see a plane. 7 I kept shaking and sweating profusely. 8 I vomited again, and had painful stomach cramps. 9 My vision began to blur, and I began to 10 see double. I had muscle and bone pain. 11 My head and blisters were hurting. My 12 right, my right trouser pant was torn. 13 I was bleeding from my right shin. A 14 Corpsman treated my skin wound and blisters, and gave 15 me some pills for pain. 16 A Jeep, followed by three trucks, 17 arrived. Two men in protective clothing got out of 18 the Jeep and told us to halt. 19 They checked us with some type of 20 instruments. The instrument kept ticking as I was 21 checked. 22 The men checking me said something that 23 I have never forgotten: "Marine, you have had it." 24 He confiscated my film badge and told me to get into 25 one of the trucks with other Marines. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 218 1 We had gone for about an hour and 2 a-half when we saw about ten or 12 men dressed in 3 denim clothes behind a chain link fenced compound, 4 protected by barb wire on top. And we passed the 5 compound, the men covered their deformed faces with 6 deformed hands. 7 Some had no hair, and some had some 8 hair that appeared to be falling off. They moved in 9 a somber way. 10 I was taking mental notes, but I also 11 remember the rules of Desert Rock: "Ignore the 12 scenery. Forget what you see or go through. 13 Analysis and evaluation are for the experts. What 14 you see here remains here." 15 As we passed the compound there were 16 several armed guards guarding what appeared to be the 17 entrance. 18 We arrived at a heavily guarded area. 19 We were ordered to strip down to, our clothes down, 20 and we washed our body with some type of strong soap. 21 We waited for a few minutes. 22 All our old clothes and other stuff 23 were burned. New clothes were issued. 24 The short, balding Captain came over 25 and ordered us, ordered me and a Private and a 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 219 1 Corporal to get into one of the waiting trucks. The 2 young Lieutenant wearing a .45 caliber pistol joined 3 us and accompanied us to our destination. As the 4 truck moved the Lieutenant ordered us to cover our 5 eyes and not to look until we were told to do so. 6 We arrived in an air-conditioned 7 building somewhere in the desert where men and women 8 dressed in military and civilian clothes were 9 working. No one had any insignia to signify their 10 rank, nor a name tag. 11 I was in pain, and vomiting again. I 12 was taken through a corridor to a large room where 13 there were two examining tables, three metal chairs, 14 and some small tables with medical supplies. The 15 next room adjacent to us had thick glass windows 16 where men and women were working turning dials 17 attached to large electronic machines. Some were 18 pressing buttons. Others were turning switches, and 19 others were looking at screens. 20 Two men assisted me in getting on one 21 of the examining table. One of the ladies in the 22 room gave me some white pills, a yellow pill, and a 23 cool glass of water. She also treated my skin wound 24 and blisters. 25 A few minutes later a woman came into Human Radiation Experiments/SF 220 1 the room and told me to remove my shirt. She 2 injected into my upper left arm. I asked her what 3 was injected into me, and she explained to me an 4 answer only that it was medication. 5 A man with an off-white complexion came 6 into the room. He had a short beard and long nose. 7 One of the ladies told him that I had 8 received a lot of radiation, and mentioned the 9 blisters and skin wound to him. She mentioned many 10 other things that I can't remember. 11 The man told her to make sure my nose 12 and bronchial area and lungs be checked, and to take 13 blood samples. He ordered me to proceed with the 14 experiment, and I was held down to the table by two 15 men and women, and was strapped down to it and 16 another lady came over to my side and told me that I 17 looked very sick. 18 She rubbed my left arm with alcohol, 19 applied a tourniquet, and held up a syringe full of 20 some yellow liquid. She told me that my body would 21 send responses and signals to a room next to ours 22 where everything would be monitored. 23 She said that much would be learned 24 from this experiment, and I did not have to worry 25 about anything because, as she put it, "You'll expire 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 221 1 in about six months." 2 But I fooled the bastards. I'm still 3 alive. 4 I tried to get away and avoid the 5 needle, but the straps were too tight. I felt the 6 hot liquid go into my vein. 7 I stopped struggling, and felt funny 8 and relaxed. Wires were attached to my head, 9 temples, chest, stomach, arms, legs, and ankles. 10 The man with a beard put a stethoscope 11 to my chest and listened. He smiled and revealed his 12 yellow buck teeth. 13 Speaking in broken English with a 14 heavy, stiff accent, he told me that he and the 15 others in the room were doctors and scientists, and 16 were here to help me an the others. 17 He mentioned to one of the ladies that 18 I was a right specimen. I spat in his face and he 19 called me an SOB. He was very furious. 20 He yelled at me in something I did not 21 understand, and he said that this work was recognized 22 and authorized by our government. He raised his hand 23 to strike me, but one of the ladies held him back. 24 I was kept under drugs and questioned 25 many times. I do not know what else was done to me 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 222 1 at this hospital in the desert. 2 Sometime in August I was taken back to 3 my unit in Pendleton. My symptoms continued, and I 4 kept going to the doctors. 5 I was hospitalized so many times again, 6 operated on, and in June, 1964, I was honorably 7 retired from the, the Marine Corps. I have been 8 diagnosed with various disorders, among them 9 leukemia, under remission, colon cancer, prostate, 10 thyroid, bloody urine and stools, loss of vision, 11 severe neck and bone pains, partial paralysis of 12 lower extremities. 13 I have a grandson born with one kidney. 14 Another grandson passes blood through urine; a 15 granddaughter with bone problems to her legs and one 16 of my sons who has the same problems as I, but he's 17 doing fine now. 18 I blame my children's illnesses due to 19 my exposure to radiation at Yucca Flat and to what 20 was injected into me. I have written many times to 21 many different people in different departments about 22 what happened in Yucca Flats in '57. 23 A Congressman never helped. The Marine 24 Corps never responded. Others stated that there was 25 no record of me ever being at Yucca Flat, and if I 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 223 1 was there I probably received some kind of an X-ray, 2 maybe an X-ray does. 3 The Department of Energy sent me a dose 4 reconstruction of 1040 rems, which is, which was 5 provided by the Defense Nuclear Agency. 6 I am not seeking sympathy, nor am I 7 seeking pay. All I am asking you, members of this 8 honorable committee, is for the truth. 9 Number one, who were the men behind the 10 compound at Yucca Flats? 11 Two, why were they behind that big barb 12 wire cage? 13 Three, what was injected into me, and 14 what kinds of pills were given to me at this desert 15 hospital where experiments were being conducted? 16 Number 4, who are these doctors and 17 neurologists? 18 Number 5, can this Committee provide me 19 with a true film badge reading of my exposure to 20 radiation? 21 And above all I ask for justice for all 22 those that have died due to the stupidity and 23 carelessness of those in charge; justice for the 24 widows and orphan sons and daughters of those atomic 25 veterans, and justice for those few surviving atomic 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 224 1 veterans that went through the same hell and torture 2 that I went through in that hospital experimental 3 station somewhere in the Nevada desert. Thank you. 4 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Torres. 5 This is information that is very important for us to 6 hear. 7 (Whereupon, applause was had.) 8 THE CHAIR: Are you questions for Mr. 9 Torres? Lois, and then -- 10 MS. NORRIS: What were you told in 11 advance when they placed you at, when you say one 12 mile from Ground Zero? What did they tell you in 13 advance? 14 MR. TORRES: Ma'am, I was a leader of 15 men in the Marine Corps. I had a platoon, and in the 16 Marine Corps you never ask questions. 17 They tell you. You never ask 18 questions, no man. Just get in that trench. 19 DR. TUCKSON: You have described with 20 extraordinary clarity what happened after the 21 explosion, and the medical kinds of things that were 22 done to you. Was there any other follow up by the 23 people that initially saw you right after this 24 experience over the next couple of years? 25 Did they summon you to draw more blood? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 225 1 Did they summon you to take any samples or, or any 2 x-rays or any of that sort of thing? 3 MR. TORRES: Yes, sir. I remained in 4 the desert hospital until sometime in August. 5 DR. TUCKSON: When, when, when did you 6 go? When did it start? 7 MR. TORRES: When, no, no, from the 8 fifth of July until sometime in August. I don't 9 remember the dates. 10 And then I was taken to Pendleton. 11 Okay, that brigade was disbanded, okay, and then I 12 went to the hospital several times. I was 13 questioned. 14 And then from Pendleton I was taken to 15 a war hospital in San Diego, and I was questioned 16 over there and given pills and so forth, and taken 17 back to Pendleton. 18 DR. TUCKSON: So these times that 19 you're describing are not times that you reported 20 because of medical complaints, but in fact they 21 summond you? 22 MR. TORRES: Yes, sir. 23 DR. THOMAS: One of our major themes is 24 the importance of voluntary informed consent. I 25 thought you, I understood in you, the very beginning 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 226 1 of your statement to say that you were told that you 2 were about to participate in this great experiment 3 and you could back out if you wanted to if you wanted 4 to spend 20 years behind bars. 5 DR. TORRES: Yes. 6 DR. THOMAS: Is that correct? 7 MR. TORRES: Yes, sir. 8 DR. THOMAS: So prior to that had you 9 in any sense, had you ever signed a statement, or 10 made any kind of statement saying that, yes, you 11 volunteered for this operation, the, the -- 12 MR. TORRES: You are volunteered, 13 especially in the Marine Corps. You are always 14 volunteered. 15 They don't ask you whether you want to 16 volunteer. Maybe the Army isn't that way, or the 17 Navy. I don't know. But in the Marine Corps they 18 volunteer you. 19 DR. TUCKSON: Did you sign anything? 20 MR. TORRES: No, sir. 21 THE CHAIR: We have Ruth and then -- 22 DR. MACKLIN: Duncan just asked the 23 question I was going to ask, so I will not do that. 24 But thank you for sharing with us all this 25 information. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 227 1 THE CHAIR: Mr. Torres, we can have 2 your written statement, but we will take it from, 3 Steve will take it from you. 4 And just one more question and then -- 5 DR. ROYAL: Mr. Torres, you mentioned 6 there were two missing men. 7 MR. TORRES: Yes, sir. 8 DR. ROYAL: Were they part of your 9 platoon? 10 MR. TORRES: Yes, sir. 11 DR. ROYAL: What happened to those men? 12 MR. TORRES: Okay, after the trenches 13 caved in we were about an hour and a-half, about an 14 hour and a-half later, and then I had a call and I 15 knew the men were missing. I wouldn't remember their 16 names. 17 And I assembled a search party to 18 locate them; could not be located. I never found out 19 what happened to them. I have written letters asking 20 the Marine Corps and so forth; no response. 21 THE CHAIR: We, we cannot emphasize how 22 grateful we are for you coming here today. We, what 23 you shared with us is terribly important, and we hope 24 you can be made, make yourself available to staff so 25 we can get some more information from you. Thank you 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 228 1 very, very much. 2 Our next speaker is Mrs. Audrey Hack, 3 if Mrs. Hack is here. 4 Thank you, Mrs. Hack. 5 STATEMENT BY AUDREY HACK: 6 MS. HACK: Good morning. Thank you for 7 coming. 8 After listening to some of them I think 9 I'm taking up your time and I shouldn't, but -- 10 THE CHAIR: No, we need to hear from 11 everybody. 12 MS. HACK: I'm Audrey Hack, and I', 13 widow of Leroy Hack, Second Marine Division, who was 14 in on the first boat after the bomb was dropped on 15 Nagasaki. He helped to string communications and 16 stuff that went on the first boat. 17 There's a gentlemen back here who was 18 in the Navy who said they went in first to rescue the 19 prisoners of war. 20 Anyway, when he died of leukemia his 21 doctors said that one of the biggest secrets in the 22 world is that Japan is just full of leukemia but no 23 one wants to talk about it, the U.S. nor China. 24 Leroy was a very proud man who insisted 25 his family stand behind the Marine Corps, and we 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 229 1 always had cake on the Marine Corps's birthday. And 2 then we were blessed with four children and they were 3 all healthy, but on becoming adults and, or as they 4 became adults and the Viet Nam War was going on and 5 stuff, our son said, thank God he wasn't old enough 6 to go, but he said, "Dad, I'm not going," because one 7 of our neighbors, their son went to Canada. 8 And my husband, as a Marine, just 9 couldn't understand that. But he, we were blessed 10 again, because the Selective Service ended just 11 before he turned 18. 12 We were close as anyone could be, but 13 gradually I sided with the kids and started 14 questioning our country. And when you stop and think 15 of everything that's going on from World War II, and 16 the things we deny to people, and we've always chosen 17 the poorest, it seems like, or the Military or 18 something, and, and I don't know. 19 Anyway, he just wouldn't, as far as he 20 was concerned his country was right, and that's the 21 way we were raised. We were always active in voting 22 and everything. 23 I have seven grandchildren. Five of 24 them are old enough to vote and be active, but it's 25 really hard. They're not interested. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 230 1 So now not only do we have a generation 2 that questioned the, started questioning, but now we 3 have a whole generation that don't believe anything 4 the Government says. And I would just, my grandkids, 5 because they've gone to college and stuff, but it's 6 hard to say, "Come on. Get involved. We need your 7 help on this election," or, or, "getting this 8 proposition passed." 9 They've been very supportive in trying 10 to research this about Dad, and we found when he died 11 of leukemia that he had been researching it and that 12 they said he wasn't the first one in; that they'd 13 sent scientists in there ahead of them, and just a 14 whole bunch of things. 15 So I'm just real glad you're here. And 16 in researching this on the Advisory Board, my son and 17 I went to the library. 18 I don't see anybody on here that is a 19 victim. I think you should expand it. 20 And I also think, I'm not putting any, 21 saying anything wrong with the people that you have 22 on here, but the radiation specialist that you have 23 on here are all from these universities and stuff who 24 have done some of these atrocities. And I'm not 25 saying they were involved, but it, surely there's 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 231 1 somebody out there from another university that has a 2 good name that hasn't done that, or something that we 3 can give our kids a belief in that you will be 4 unbiased, because if, so many things have come along. 5 Anyway, I just, that's just what we 6 discovered. So I thank you for coming. Thank the 7 President for sending you, and I wish you well, 8 because I don't know how you can stand up here and 9 hear this. I couldn't sleep last night. 10 THE CHAIR: Mrs. Hack, thank you very 11 much. Will you wait there? May be some questions or 12 comments. 13 But it is, you're right. It's very 14 difficult to hear all this, and I can just give you 15 personal assurances we will be as unbiased as is 16 humanly possible. 17 We are clearly affected by everybody's 18 statement, and we certainly do not want to continue 19 to do anything that undermines young people's 20 disinterest. I don't know if we'll succeed, but 21 there are other questions or comments. 22 MS. HACK: Well, I've got involved in 23 the homeless situation over there in the tri-cities, 24 and I want to tell you, every Friday night I worked 25 on feeding the men because they have, from the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 232 1 families. And a large, big share of them were 2 veterans from one war or the other. 3 So remember that when you see them 4 setting (sic) out here begging and stuff. They 5 didn't, they needed the attention then, and they need 6 it now. 7 THE CHAIR: You're right. Thank you 8 very much, Mrs. Hack. 9 MRS. HACK: Thank you very much. 10 THE CHAIR: Our next speaker is Mr. 11 Richard Harley. Is Mr. Harley here? 12 Thank you very much, Mr. Harley. 13 PRESENTATION BY RICHARD HARLEY: 14 MR. HARLEY: I'd like to open by 15 thanking you for availing yourself to something as 16 important as this. I urge you to listen to what 17 these people have said, and taking that into 18 consideration as you go about your decisions about 19 what can be done beyond this point. 20 I have written a couple of different 21 things that I wanted to say, but I got too emotional 22 so I had to change it. And I thought about technical 23 events, and I thought about my own personal 24 experience, and this is strictly, but what I'm going 25 to say is not. However, I have documentation and 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 233 1 things that I do want to turn over to that. 2 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 3 MR. HARLEY: My name's Richard Harley 4 and I was in the Navy as CVE-114, which is an escort 5 type of aircraft that we had at that time, was 6 antisubmarine. We were told that the reason that we 7 had them abroad was to, because of the nature of the 8 operation that we were about to participate in, they 9 were concerned about the Russian and the foreign 10 submarines and what was happening. 11 We were, November first -- I'm just 12 going to skip right on down here and get to this. 13 November first, 1942, at approximately 2:38 a.m., the 14 very first, the very first thermonuclear device was 15 detonated on the Tornado with an explosive level in 16 excess of ten megaton. 17 The Government has admitted to ten 18 megaton. However, there are sources that say it was 19 in excess of 14 that I have not been able to 20 document, but I do know it is available. 21 By Atomic Energy Commission definitions 22 it was an experimental device; therefore, that put us 23 all in position to be part of an experiment. 24 The code name of that particular item 25 was called "Mike." This is all part of Operation 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 234 1 Ivy, which took place in the fall of 1942. 2 It was one of those secret, super- 3 secret coded things that we were asked, where the 4 Military has said, "You're volunteering." We were 5 not to talk about it. 6 We could not have any devices aboard 7 such as radio, telephone, recording devices, cameras. 8 And we were sworn to secrecy about this. 9 This operation was denied by the 10 Government until 1982, 40 years later. We are still 11 fighting trying to get information about it. 12 November sixteenth, 1942, an atomic 13 bomb was dropped from a B-36 and was detonated at 14 approximately 14,000 feet, or 1,400 feet over a reef 15 off Unity Island, a yield of 500 kiloton. This test, 16 along with some 15 or so at *Marine Island, took 17 place a mere 67 miles from Japan Island, the 18 recreational island. 19 And not only was our ship designated 20 and located on that particular island for recreation, 21 plus several others as well during the course of the 22 tests in the Pacific, but somewhere along the way, 23 because we got the word that it was, that, I'm 24 speaking somewhere along the way before we got there 25 the word was that one test might be a new experiment 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 235 1 of a device that could destroy the earth, and this 2 could be on our, be our very last trip. 3 This situation, of course, at first was 4 kind of joked about, but by the time we got to 5 Kwaliein and saw the people that came abroad, we were 6 talking in a different tone; that we had in fact, it 7 had become quite somber; that maybe it was true. 8 November first around 7:00 a.m. it was 9 announced that all personnel to witness and explosion 10 were to mess around the observation deck and prepare 11 for the final countdown. Instructions were given 12 that no personnel were given protective clothes and 13 eyeglasses except those who were given eyeglasses and 14 authorized to use them, and we were directed to sit 15 on the deck with your eyes opposite from the 16 observation area; pull your knees up to your chin; 17 put your eyes against your arms with your arms over 18 your bent knees. And we were to remain in that 19 position until zero plus ten seconds. 20 I cannot express the air of tension at 21 T minus ten seconds and counting. My, I didn't 22 remember any sounds except, "4,3,2,1, detonation." 23 The heat, brightness, and the rumble 24 that were growing were beyond description. I 25 couldn't think of describing anything at that moment 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 1 anyway. 2 The heat was becoming very 3 uncomfortable. The brightness had reached the point 4 where you could actually see the shadow of your arm 5 bone through your closed eyes pressed against your 6 arm. 7 I was at that point beginning to think 8 it was the end, when things started changing and we 9 were able to look around. And I heard, "My God, look 10 at that." 11 We were 30 miles from Operation Mike. 12 The operation came to less than 20 miles from where 13 Servicemen were encouraged to spend their relaxation 14 time. 15 There were other tests performed in 16 that region, varying in size of warhead. The 17 difference was 500 kilotons instead of ten megaton. 18 Some of them worked. We made it. 19 The next morning after Mike detonated I 20 went to Japan Island for recreation. Five hours 21 after King we went to Japan for recreation, only six 22 or seven miles from the test site. 23 I spent most every day swimming, laying 24 (sic) on the beach, drinking and eating in a known 25 contaminated area. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 237 1 I know I'm running short on time, but 2 I'd like to finish that. 3 The second test came, took place on the 4 sixteenth, which was 15 days after the thermonuclear 5 device was detonated. Our ship was about 15 miles 6 from it. 7 I got out of the service in March, 8 1945, and I was married and divorced and had my two 9 children adopted within two years because I had not 10 the strength nor ability to concentrate to take care 11 of them. 12 I had another marriage in 1958, and was 13 married for ten years in a very deplorable type of 14 marriage. I had one son and, and, for my physical 15 condition, muscle aches and pains, and things that 16 were in my body, I did not hold that together. 17 My teeth were being pulled out, out 18 without cavities then. The, I, I wanted to commit 19 suicide more than once. 20 My son, Mike and new wife, have tried 21 to have children for the past 12 years. She has had 22 two documented miscarriages, several non-documented. 23 My son has been tested. He has, his 24 sperm count is find. She has no problem. They do 25 not understand why they can't have children. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 238 1 I've remarried to my present wife and I 2 have been married for 25 years. We had one child. 3 She had several miscarriages, as did my first wives. 4 My son was born with deformed feet. 5 I've had 39 jobs in 42 years, in that 6 amount of time. I presently have applied to VA for 7 compensation. 8 I had to go to a PTSD because they will 9 not recognize any testing with radioactive materials. 10 I'm very disturbed with the Government, and I feel 11 that we were used as guinea pigs during those 12 experiments. 13 No one told me that I would hurt for so 14 many years and not be able to care for myself or my 15 family. Had I known that there was any possibility 16 that low level radiation should do this I would have 17 never married or had children. 18 In conclusion of my testimony I would, 19 I want to raise an issue of serious concern to atomic 20 veterans about Dr. Russell's presence on the Advisory 21 Committee. 22 I hope, Dr. Russell, that you do not 23 take this wrong, for I do not mean to suggest any 24 wrongdoing of any kind on your part. However, I have 25 no reason -- and I have no reason to show any 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 239 1 disrespect of your career or accomplishments. 2 However, the atomic veteran can't help 3 but be concerned about the fact that Dr. Russell in 4 the past has been a high-ranking official of several 5 Army institutions now implicated in experiments now 6 under investigation by the Committee: for instance, 7 the Army Research Development Command. 8 Even though these experiments would 9 have occurred prior to Dr. Russell's time, we can't 10 help to wonder just how Dr. Russell can now expect to 11 sit in judgment of such military experiments without 12 compromise. 13 Thank you. 14 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Harley. And 15 we certainly appreciate your sharing your experience 16 and your concern. 17 We are very mindful of the potential of 18 appearance of conflict of interest for all of our 19 committee members, and we are trying to do our best 20 to lay that out before the public. And I know you 21 draw your own conclusions if, if -- 22 MR. HARLEY: I might suggest one thing, 23 if I may: that you would consider perhaps adding six 24 more members to your board, all people who have not 25 been involved in any government experiments or 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 240 1 contractors or hospitalization in a medical facility 2 that has in any way been related to the experiments. 3 THE CHAIR: Thank you. Thank you very 4 much. 5 Oh, Mister, Mr. Harley, do you have 6 written material that you can leave, or something 7 that can get typed up? We would appreciate that very 8 much. Thank you. Thank you very much. 9 Okay, next is Mr. Don Arbitlit. 10 MR. ARBITLIT: Good morning. 11 THE CHAIR: Good morning. Thank you 12 for coming to us. 13 PRESENTATION BY DON ARBITLIT: 14 MR. ARBITLIT: Thank you. My name is 15 Don Arbitlit, and I'm an attorney with the law firm 16 of Leiff, Cabraser & Heinmann. Our law firm 17 represents Emma Kraft and the certified classes of 18 829 women who ingested radioactive iron without their 19 knowledge or consent at the Vanderbilt Prenatal 20 Clinic between 1945 and 1947, along with the children 21 of the women who were there at that time and who were 22 exposed in utero during the most vulnerable stage of 23 life. 24 The experiments were conducted at the 25 Vanderbilt Prenatal Clinic in Nashville, Tennessee, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 241 1 and on behalf of our clients I wish to express my 2 appreciation for the opportunity to explain the 3 background of this case and how we feel it fits into 4 this committee's work. 5 There are a number of issues in a very 6 brief time. I have provided a written statement with 7 copies of certain exhibits. We'll be happy to 8 provide any additional information that this 9 Committee requests. 10 I also have a copy of Emma Kraft's 11 Deposition which was taken on videotape to preserve 12 her testimony in September, 1994. Mrs. Kraft is 13 presently 73 years old. 14 She is in rather frail condition, and 15 the Deposition I urge you to watch because, as you've 16 heard this morning, the human face of what went on 17 during these experiments is most important. The 18 cold, hard facts must be considered, but the human 19 fact is most important to this committee's work. 20 In 1969, a follow up study was published 21 in the American Journal of Epidemiology concerning 22 the Vanderbilt experimentation. This study was 23 conducted by some of the best scientists that the 24 country had, including Doctors Brill and Heisel, who 25 are on the Vanderbilt faculties and have served with 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 241 1 distinction on the Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission 2 following World War II. 3 Dr. Heisel in fact had written one of 4 the seminal articles associating leukemia and 5 radiation exposure. This published article was peer 6 reviewed at a time when there was no litigation 7 pending, and no motive for any color of the physician 8 to serve one party's side in a lawsuit. 9 The study found that there were four 10 childhood cancer deaths out of only 679 children who 11 could still be located with respect to the children 12 who were exposed in utero during pregnancy. A 13 control group had had no childhood cancer deaths, 14 none. 15 This control group was made up of women 16 who were at the same facility at approximately the 17 same time, and the only differences was that they'd 18 not been exposed to radioactive iron. 19 This follow up study stated that a 20 finding of the three of the cancers suggests a 21 cause-and-effect relationship between radioactive 22 iron exposure and fatal childhood cancers that 23 resulted. They found that this was statistically 24 significant because the expected number of cancers in 25 that population would have been 0.65, so that 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 243 1 actually they found four, they discounted one because 2 of a familial history of cancer in that family. 3 In the others, there was no family 4 history in the other cases. Nonetheless, it was five 5 times higher, and it was significantly higher. 6 It is necessary to take into account 7 that that is a published peer-reviewed study outside 8 the context of litigation, and that current attempts 9 by parties to the lawsuit, whether plaintiffs or 10 defendants, are undoubtedly going to be of less 11 scientific merit than a peer-reviewed study that was 12 put out by the institution. 13 And i might had that study was 14 conducted with Atomic Energy Commission funds, U.S. 15 Public Health Service Funds, expressly because there 16 was a concern that the radioactive iron may have 17 caused this harm. That study was done in 1969. 18 This population has not been followed 19 up since that time, and that is an error that must be 20 corrected as part of this Committee's work. 21 Twenty-five years have gone by. The only evidence is 22 that harm was caused, and yet there has been no 23 followup. 24 We believe that at a minimum this 25 Committee should recommend appropriate medical 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 244 1 followup and studies. If these people were important 2 enough to study for research purposes in 1964 when 3 it, the idea was broached to the Atomic Energy 4 Commission, and federal funds were approved at that 5 time, there is no justification for refusing further 6 followup at this time. 7 Now, in order to accomplish that, there 8 are a number of avenues. One is that through the 9 lawsuit we have attempted to have Vanderbilt release 10 the names so that a followup study can begin. 11 Vanderbilt has refused. 12 Vanderbilt is the only party that has, 13 knows names. They have in their records, although 14 some of the records showing radioactive exposure have 15 been lost, Vanderbilt has in the hospital right 16 across the street from the campus the names of all 17 the people who were at the Vanderbilt Prenatal Clinic 18 at that time. They have refused to provide those 19 records. 20 We believe that it would be appropriate 21 for the Commission to direct or recommend, whatever is 22 within your power, I'm sure that's a subtlety that 23 we'll see happen as far as directing or recommending, 24 but it's of the utmost importance that these people 25 be contacted so that information can be gathered from 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 245 1 they before they die. 2 These are people, many of these class 3 members and subjects of the experiment have already 4 deceased. They were there 45, 50 years ago. 5 There are still a lot of them living. 6 They're elderly. They're in frail health. They 7 should be contacted. 8 The information is important to 9 science. It's important morally that this Committee 10 take a stand and say, "These people deserve at the 11 very least that type of followup." 12 Now, as far as Emma Kraft's own 13 personal story, I feel that it's important for you to 14 know a little about her as a person and to watch the 15 videotape of her deposition. Emma Kraft is the 16 birthmother of Carolyn Bucy. 17 Carolyn was exposed in utero in March 18 of 1946 when Mrs. Kraft went to the clinic. She has 19 testified under oath that she was not told that there 20 was radioactive iron, that she was not told of any of 21 the risks, and if she had been told she never would 22 have done anything that could harm her babies. 23 Excuse me. 24 As, as Mrs. Kraft has testified, -- 25 It's very moving, and it's moving to me. And I 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 246 1 apologize for the emotions during the presentation 2 but it's, I urge you to watch the video and -- 3 THE CHAIR: I can assure you we will. 4 We're grateful, and I can assure you that that 5 videotape will be watched. 6 MR. ARBITLIT: All right. Thank you. 7 Mrs. Kraft is a simple, decent, honest 8 person who were to Vanderbilt because she trusted the 9 doctors there. She had three children before this 10 time, actually one born at the hospital, two home 11 births with Vanderbilt doctors. 12 She trusted she was going to receive 13 good care. She did not know she was going to be used 14 in an experiment. 15 Now, Dr. Garvey, who was a director of 16 this project, has testified under oath that his 17 committee decided neither to tell these women nor to 18 not tell them. They did not decide either way. 19 So by default these women were not 20 told. So he has stated under oath that he does not 21 know of anyone being told, and that he did not 22 personally tell any person they were receiving this 23 substance. 24 It's clear there was no informed 25 consent. There was no information, period; not about 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 247 1 the risks. 2 Mrs. Kraft, when her daughter got 3 cancer at the age of eight, believed that it was 4 God's will. And she's a religious person. 5 She was able to accept ultimately this 6 horrible loss of her daughter, who died a slow, 7 painful, gruesome death over the course of tow and 8 a-half years. Five cancer surgeries a month before 9 her twelfth birthday, with cancer growing out of her 10 mouth, this child died; a wonderful child by all 11 accounts. 12 It wasn't until recently that she came 13 to believe, recently, based on the medical evidence 14 that's been published, that this tragedy happened for 15 no reason; that it wasn't an act of God. It was the 16 intervention of humankind, and it was done without 17 her personal, without her consent. She can't accept 18 it. 19 She is, can be depressive. She can't 20 sleep. 21 She had trouble leaving the house, and 22 she's reliving her daughter's death on a daily basis, 23 trying to ask herself why. She doesn't know. 24 Our view is that this is a legal and 25 moral issue, and one that the Committee must address. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 248 1 It shouldn't have happened. 2 The principle of informed consent was 3 well established well before 1945. And in a 1914 4 case of SCHLOENDORFF, Justice Cardoza, a future 5 Supreme Court Justice, stated that every person, 6 every man at that time, every human being of adult 7 years and sound mind has a right to determine what 8 shall be done with his own body. 9 The principle of informed consent was 10 adopted in a specific case in Virginia in 1918 11 concerning failure to inform of the risk of X-ray 12 therapy. A person suffered X-ray burns after a 13 doctor tried to get rid of eczema there with X-rays. 14 The Court there held that the risks of radiation 15 should have been disclosed. 16 In 1929 the State of Tennessee, where 17 this experiment was conducted, adopted the principle 18 of informed consent and held that a failure to 19 provide such consent invalidated the procedures used 20 by the doctors, and the doctor was held liable for 21 conducting surgery without exposing the risks. And 22 that's the case of HASKINS versus HOWARD, referenced 23 in these materials. 24 At the time of these experiments the 25 investigation into the medical crimes in Germany was 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 249 1 ongoing. Dr. Garvey testified at his deposition that 2 he was aware that those investigations were ongoing. 3 The Journal of American Medical Association 4 published the ethics standards requiring 5 voluntary consent, prior animal testing, and proper 6 medical management contemporaneous with this 7 experiment. Those standards were not met. 8 There was not informed consent. There 9 were no prior experiments with pregnant animals. 10 Radioactive iron had only been 11 available for a short time, about eight years. None 12 of the experiments that were in published literature, 13 and none that we're aware of, concerned pregnant 14 animals or risks to fetus. 15 In fact, the AEC shipment records show 16 that radioactive iron was shipped from Oak Ridge to a 17 university in Washington, D.C., for fetal implants 18 research after Emma Kraft and the subjects of this 19 experiment had been used as human guinea pigs. 20 That's wrong. 21 They should have never come first. The 22 animal experiments should have come first, according 23 to the applicable standards of the day. 24 It's important for the Committee not to 25 accept the revisionism that we're trying to apply 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 250 1 current-day standards to things that happened a long 2 time ago. The standards at that time said that 3 animal experiments had to be done, proper medical 4 management had to be there. 5 Now, there wasn't, in the third 6 category the director, Dr. Cavadaria (phonetic), was 7 a 32-year-old nutritionist who's testified under oath 8 that he had no expertise of radiation, and in fact 9 the principal architect was not a physician. He was 10 a physicist named Paul Hahn. 11 He was on the Vanderbilt faculty, and 12 he had his own program. He was the single leading 13 purchaser and user of isotopes from Oak Ridge during 14 a one-year period after those isotopes became 15 available publicly in July, 1946. 16 And he was an insider at Oak Ridge who 17 had access to the isotopes before they were publicly 18 available. In fact, the radioactive iron that was 19 used prior to public availability placed from Oak 20 Ridge was available because Paul Hahn knew how to get 21 it. 22 Now, he exchanged information with the 23 Atomic Energy Commission on the very subject of the 24 safety of radioactive iron. There was something that 25 the Federal Government had a hand in by providing the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 251 1 isotopes, by failing to provide adequate standards of 2 review that would prevent the improper and unethical 3 use of these hazardous materials, and we, we believe 4 that the Federal Government has already acknowledged 5 its involvement by conducting the followup study in 6 the '60s that the Federal Government should follow 7 through now, that, at minimum there should be 8 appropriate notification and medical monitoring, and 9 that it deserving cases such as Emma Kraft, where 10 there's substantial evidence of injury, that there 11 should be appropriate compensation. 12 And I'll be happy to take any questions 13 in the brief time -- 14 THE CHAIR: We are out of time, out of 15 time with respect to questions, but Mr. Arbitlit, 16 everything you've provided is very helpful. We'll 17 watch the tape and we'll be grateful for any 18 information you can continue to provide us about the 19 case. You've been a fine representative. 20 MR. ARBITLIT: Thank you. 21 THE CHAIR: We appreciate it very much. 22 The next speaker is Mr. Geoffrey Sea. 23 PRESENTATION BY MR. SEA: 24 MR. SEA: Good morning. My name is 25 Geoffrey Sea. I'm a radiological health physicist, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 252 1 and have been active for many years investigating 2 human experiments involving radiation. 3 I am speaking here today as an 4 individual researcher, as director of the Atomic 5 Reclamation and Conversion Project of the Tides 6 Foundation, as one of the founders and organizers of 7 IRIS, which stands for International Radiation Injury 8 Survivors, and as a member of the Task Force on 9 Radiation and Human Rights. I am currently working 10 on radiation experiment cases for Leiff, Cabraser & 11 Heinmann, but I wish to make it clear that I am not 12 speaking here today as a representative of the firm, 13 since you have already heard the eloquent testimony 14 of Mr. Donald Arbitlit. 15 I do feel that I am speaking for two 16 colleagues who are here with me in spirit. The full 17 investigation and expose of U.S. radiation 18 experimentation program represents the culmination of 19 their life's work, but you do not see them joining me 20 because they etch in their own way gave their lives 21 to this work. We should commemorate them here today. 22 Dorothy Legarreta was a graduate 23 student worker who, during the Manhattan Project, 24 smashed contaminated glassware in the laboratory of 25 Joseph Hamilton at the UC/Berkeley Radiation 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 253 1 Laboratory. Twenty years later a son died of acute 2 lymphoblastic leukemia, and Dorothy had surgery for a 3 large thyroid tumor. 4 Dorothy founded the National 5 Association of Radiation Survivors, and as the first 6 independent research to examine Hamilton's papers 7 at the Bancroft Library, she discovered the now 8 infamous 1950 memo in which he warned against doing 9 certain whole-body radiation experiments n humans, 10 the very same ones which Eugene Saenger and his team 11 would later conduct, because to do so would, in 12 Hamilton's words, quote, "have a little of the 13 Buchenwald touch," unquote. 14 Dorothy publicized this memo and began 15 to uncover the full extent of the human 16 experimentation program in 1982. Around that time 17 she filed the first the Freedom of Information Act 18 request on human experimentation with the Department 19 of Energy, the response to which I would urge this 20 Committee to obtain, which led more or less directly 21 to the 1986 Markey Report. 22 On November first, 1988, while 23 completing a book about the experimentation program, 24 Dorothy's car mysteriously ran off the road and into 25 a tree just north of here on Highway 101. Her 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 254 1 briefcase, though reported found at the scene, 2 disappeared. 3 Dorothy Troxell, whom we all knew as 4 "Dottie," and again Bruce referred to her before, 5 hired on as a worker at the AEC's Kansas City's plant 6 in 1952. She helped build the components of the 7 first hydrogen bomb, and was later assigned to 8 calibrate radiation detection devices for use at the 9 test sites by holding them up to a Cobalt-60 source. 10 In 1957 a careless accident by a 11 co-worker left that source unshielded. Dottie and 12 her co-worker were exposed to lethal levels of gamma 13 radiation, and over the following days and weeks 14 Dottie developed symptoms of Acute Radiation 15 sickness. 16 It was expected that Dottie would die 17 and become the perfect autopsy specimen, so rather 18 than telling Dottie what had happened to her and was 19 happening to her, her employer at Bendix, and AEC, 20 chose to turn her into a scientific experiment. It 21 was the perfect experiment of opportunity, as you 22 call it, because the exposure had been to a 23 calibration source, so the doses to every organ, if 24 not tissue, could be gauged to perhaps an unmatched 25 degree of precision. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 255 1 Dottie was told that her vaginal 2 hemorrhaging was due to a, the hormonal problem so 3 she would not question the administration of 4 estrogens, which were then under investigation as a 5 potential treatment for radiation injury. She was 6 then sent to Lovelace Clinic in Albuquerque, New 7 Mexico, where again under the pretense of treating 8 some idiopathic dysfunctions, she was given a 9 splenectomy, another experimental treatment developed 10 in the aftermath of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki 11 bombings, and later was studied at the Argonne 12 National Laboratory and Lovelace. 13 The splenectomy certainly did save 14 Dottie's life, but there was one problem. When 15 Dottie woke up after the surgery she found a scar 16 that ran the length of her torso from her neck to her 17 pubic mound. 18 When she asked what had been done to 19 her, a reasonable question under the circumstances, 20 she was told she could not be told because of, quote, 21 national security, unquote. We never have been able 22 to find out definitely what was done to Dottie at 23 Lovelace. 24 For 30 years Lovelace not only refused 25 to release her medical records, but denied she had 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 256 1 ever been a patient there. When I went to Lovelace 2 in 1986 in order to investigate Dottie's case, I was 3 told that not only was there no record of any patient 4 names Dorothea Troxell, but no AEC or contractor 5 employee had ever been treated at Lovelace, period. 6 Only a short time later Lovelace 7 relented and gave Dottie her medical records. These 8 records confirmed the splenectomy, but don't explain 9 the scar. 10 Dottie would joke that she must have 11 had the most enlarged spleen in medical history. But 12 seriously, we both suspected that since Dottie had 13 defiantly escaped the autopsy table, advantage had 14 been taken of her time on the operating table to 15 remove a selection of tissue samples and thereby 16 somehow contribute to this Country's national 17 defense. 18 Later Dottie's continued survival made 19 her again the subject of official scrutiny. There's 20 evidence that the AEC tracked her throughout her life 21 in order to learn the secret of this seemingly 22 radio-resistent woman. 23 Like Dorothy Legarreta, Dottie Troxell 24 went on to organize survivors. She founded the 25 organization VOTE, Victims and Veterans Opposed to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 257 1 Technological Experimentation, and was my main 2 collaborator in the founding of IRIS. 3 But in the spring of 1992, just when 4 the conspiracy of silence on radiation experiments 5 seemed deepest, Dottie gave in to exasperation. She 6 announced that she had go on a hunger strike in an 7 effort to get the Government to agree that it should 8 release all radiation experiment records and 9 compensate all survivors, demands which at that time 10 seemed like a ridiculous request. 11 She left instructions that her remains 12 were to be cremated. She did expect that she would 13 die from her hunger fast, so that her experimenters 14 would be denied any additional ill gotten use of her 15 tissue. And she said that her ashes should be spread 16 on, on a hilltop on her farm in Lexington, Missouri, 17 overlooking the Missouri River, where she also wanted 18 an IRIS memorial to be constructed. 19 Tired, hungry, and under the influence 20 of heavy doses of pain medication, Dottie died in an 21 accident only a few days later. Her body was 22 cremated, and her ashes were spread over that hilltop 23 as she had asked. 24 I've heard mention of the construction 25 of a memorial to experiment victims. I'd suggest 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 258 1 that such a memorial in the heartland of America 2 Already exists. It is the companion to a similar 3 memorial in the village of Karaul near the former 4 nuclear test site in Semipalatinsk, Kazakhstan, at 5 the heart of the former Soviet Union, an 6 important correspondence, since Americans and 7 Soviets, through Cold War experimentation, became 8 targets both of their own government and each 9 others'. 10 But perhaps both of these memorials 11 could be more formally established and publicized at 12 the recommendation of this Committee. 13 Dottie's case is only the most extreme 14 example of two whole categories of experiments so far 15 generally neglected in the discussion of radiation 16 experiments. These categories include, first, the 17 extensive program of research into drugs and 18 techniques for the prophylaxis or treatment of 19 radiation injuries. 20 Dozens, dozens of compounds, including 21 various estrogens, liver extracts, embryonic 22 material, a chemical called AET, and others, and 23 chelating agents such as DTPA and EDTA, and other 24 unnamed substance were all thoroughly investigated, 25 along with techniques such as spleen shielding, the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 259 1 splenectomy, and bone marrow transplants. 2 The purpose of this investigation was, 3 to quote an AEC document, so that a, quote, a method 4 may be found for saving people exposed to heavy 5 radiation during atomic bombings or radiological 6 accidents, unquote. 7 Human experiments in this category may 8 not be reported by agencies as radiation experiments 9 because radiation was not administered as part of the 10 experiment. Yet, all the same issues come into play 11 of secrecy, lack of informed consent, and exposure to 12 risks without medical benefit. 13 The second category is the 14 appropriation of tissue samples, organs, body fluids, 15 or whole cadavers without consent, and at times 16 against the wishes of the involuntary donors. As a 17 former health and safety consultant of various atomic 18 workers' unions I can testify that organs were taken 19 from deceased workers and destroyed in government 20 laboratories so as to make potential evidence in 21 Worker's Compensation cases unavailable. 22 Some of you may be familiar with an 23 article I wrote in the Columbia Journalism Review, 24 copies of which I will submit with my testimony, 25 about how the media profession ignored the entire 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 260 1 human radiation experiment issue for over a decade. 2 I did not discuss the question of why it was ignored. 3 Actually I did discuss the question, but the editors 4 chose not to publish that part. 5 Back in the 1980s, when Dorothy, Dottie, 6 and I were holding press conferences in vain, we also 7 wondered why there was such a pandemic of denial. Of 8 course, the reasons are many and complex, but I think 9 the single biggest reason is the unwillingness to 10 believe that so many regular and extraordinary 11 people, including so many physicians, nurses, 12 scientists, technicians, and university people would 13 be involved to an enterprise devoted to crimes 14 against humanity. 15 Most of us would like to believe that 16 this behavior was confined to Germany in the twelve 17 years between 1933 and 1945, but I urge you to keep 18 in mind a passage from Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22. 19 "In a fit of justified paranoia on the 20 battlefield, the protagonist Yossarian starts 21 screaming, 'They're trying to kill me! They're 22 trying to kill me!' 23 "As if to refute and console him, his 24 commanding officer says, 'No, they're not! They're 25 trying to kill all of us!'" 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 261 1 When it comes to the planning of 2 nuclear war we must remember, they were not trying to 3 kill individuals. They were trying to kill all of 4 us. 5 Thank you. 6 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Sea. We 7 appreciate very much your comments. 8 We'll make sure that your Columbia 9 article as well as all the rest of your material's 10 circulated to everyone on the committee. Thank you 11 very much. 12 Our next, our next speaker is Mr. 13 Harold Bibeau. Is Mr. Bibeau here? 14 Thank you for coming. You've come from 15 Oregon. You're one of our longer-distanced speakers, 16 and we appreciate it very much. 17 PRESENTATION BY HAROLD BIBEAU: 18 MR. BIBEAU: I'm going to keep this to 19 five minutes. After your yesterday I had to go back 20 to my hotel and rewrite my planned talk, and I'm 21 going to attempt to answer some of the questions that 22 were raised yesterday. 23 I've learned a great deal about Dr. 24 Heller's program in the past few months, and I can 25 combine that knowledge with my own first-hand 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 262 1 experience, since I was there. I was a former 2 research subject. I have a unique perspective. 3 THE CHAIR: We think you do, too. 4 MR. BIBEAU: The question was raised 5 yesterday of who designed the program; you know, if 6 it was, if it was the doctor or if it was the 7 Department of Energy, or whoever it was. 8 In 1963, November of 1963, the Atomic 9 Energy Advisory Committee had a meeting at Pacific 10 Northwest Research Foundation, and they came up with 11 a shopping list they wanted to, of the effects that 12 they wanted to test from both the Oregon and the 13 Washington experiments. And the name at the top is 14 Dr. Paul Henshaw, who was with Biology and Medicine. 15 So, you know, the Atomic Energy 16 Commission definitely was involved in the design of 17 the experiments. I also have with this a very good 18 roster of the people who attended that meeting, and 19 I'll, I'll make copies of that and sent it to you. 20 THE CHAIR: Great. 21 MR. BIBEAU: I'm nervous. I never sit 22 in front of this maybe people and talk. 23 THE CHAIR: Well, you take your time. 24 MR. BIBEAU: Another question was 25 raised on how were, people were picked to be on the 1- 800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 263 1 program. And the only criteria that Dr. Heller had 2 at the time is he wanted people who would be able to 3 pub at least two to three years into the program. 4 He also wanted you to be healthy. And 5 he wanted you to be non-Catholic. That was it. 6 Those were his only three criteria. 7 And we were pretty well screened for the health at 8 the time. 9 And the Oregon experiment was 10 constructed solely to study the effects of radiation 11 on the human body. There was no other reason for 12 experiments that have been performed, according to 13 Mavis Rowley, who was Dr. Heller's second in command. 14 She stated that the primary purpose was 15 to discover the effects of radiation on the human 16 body objectively. She also, in, in the same document 17 later on she said the reason the project was done was 18 people didn't know the effect of radiation on the 19 human. 20 And when, when Dr. Heller was first 21 contemplating doing this he was talking about it to 22 Dr. Paul Henshaw from the Atomic Energy Commission, 23 and he said, "If you're so interested in nuclear 24 energy's effects to man, why not work on man?" which 25 I think is not right. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 264 1 At the time of the experiments none of 2 the research subjects questioned his motive. He was 3 a very articulate man, and everybody trusted him. We 4 trusted him explicitly. 5 Dr. Heller and I discussed my travels 6 in Germany on at least three occasions, and when we 7 were talking about my travels in Germany we talked 8 about some of the atrocities that happened. I told 9 him about going to Nuremburg and going to Dachau, and 10 looking at some of the displaced they had there. 11 And at that time he told me that, that 12 because of those atrocities his program was based on 13 the Nuremburg Cod, you know. And, and I do have a 14 document which states that he did use the Nuremburg 15 Code and the Helsinki Declaration. Yeah. 16 In his 1976 deposition the question was 17 asked, "what did you tell the inmates about the 18 potential dangers of the radiation, if anything?" 19 Answer, "The skin burn," that he 20 remembered, "and later on the possibility of tumor." 21 I finally discovered what "later on" 22 means. There are two different agreement forms, but 23 the first one, -- I made copies of these available 24 to, I gave them to the staff yesterday. 25 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 265 1 MR. BIBEAU: The first one is used from 2 1964 to 1968, and it lists only the possibility of 3 skin burn. He did not discuss, he did discuss 4 chromosomal damage, but he passed that off as 5 something you really shouldn't worry about. It's, it 6 would only affect your offspring, and since we had 7 agreed to a vasectomy, you know, it wouldn't affect 8 it. 9 The second agreement was used from 1970 10 to 1971. I call this a (sic) updated version. 11 It lists pain before and after surgery, 12 internal bleeding into the scrotum, and there's also 13 a checkoff sheet that suggests that physical 14 examination throughout life, testicular tumor, 15 radiation burn, and sterility. The updated version 16 may have been used on as many as ten men. 17 Now, does that mean my time's up? 18 THE CHAIR: No, it means you're into 19 your second five minutes. 20 MR. BIBEAU: I want to stay within my 21 five minutes. I also want to have time for 22 questions. 23 THE CHAIR: Thank you. This would be 24 the time to do that, and we're lucky to have the 25 opportunities to do that. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 266 1 Are there questions from Mr. Bibeau? 2 I have, so we can get everyone a clear 3 understanding, you participated in the program with 4 the first statement of the two that you described? 5 MR. BIBEAU: Pardon? 6 THE CHAIR: That, of the two release 7 documents that you've just described, we assume that 8 you participated under that first on? 9 MR. BIBEAU: Right. I was under the 10 first one. 11 THE CHAIR: Under the first one, so 12 that when you were approached there was no 13 description of long-term risks? 14 MR. BIBEAU: There was, I can't find 15 anybody at this time that was ever told anything 16 about long-term risks, ever. 17 THE CHAIR: There was a, could you tell 18 us a little bit about how it was presented to you, 19 and how people viewed this? Was this considered, you 20 know, a diversion, an opportunity? 21 MR. BIBEAU: An inmate in prison with 22 no money is susceptible to all types of abuse from 23 all convicts. I mean, it's a very strange society to 24 be in, and this was one opportunity to make some 25 money. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 267 1 The money that they were paying at the 2 time was $5.00 a month, and it seems like, you know, 3 $5.00 a month was absolutely ridiculous. But if you 4 work in prison industries you get $5.00 a month, and 5 the pay that they were paying guys at the time was 6 based on what you would make if you were starting in 7 a prison industry. 8 You know, that's how they use it as a 9 criteria for how much they were going to give you. 10 So for some guys it made a difference between being 11 able to go down to the canteen and being able to buy 12 razor blades and tooth paste. 13 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. 14 Reed. 15 DR. TUCKSON: Was there any adverse 16 consequences if you said, "No"? So not only would 17 you get something for doing it; if you decided to not 18 participate was there any concern that your treatment 19 would not somehow be different in the prison? 20 MR. BIBEAU: No. But that, there was a 21 gentleman named Baxter Hignite who was Dr. Heller's 22 inmate right-hand person, so to speak, and Baxter's 23 the one that did most of the recruiting for the 24 program. He would go out and talk, he would find 25 people that he liked. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 268 1 You know, I mean, that was, if Baxter 2 didn't like you you'd never see the doctor. You 3 know, that was one of the ways that you got on it. 4 But he'd let you know that, you know, 5 "Dr. Heller has a very good team of doctors in 6 Seattle, and they're going to make sure that they're 7 not going to lose you. So you would have probably 8 better medical care than you would otherwise." 9 DR. TUCKSON: Also, could you, just a 10 quick comment on the, on the vasectomy. You said it 11 was an assumption that everybody would have a 12 vasectomy as part of the experiment. 13 MR. BIBEAU: That was the requirement. 14 DR. TUCKSON: And people understood 15 what that meant, and were willing to waive it? 16 MR. BIBEAU: Right. 17 THE CHAIR: I see. 18 Ruth, and Henry, and Susan. 19 DR. MACKLIN: Yes. This is really a 20 followup question, and perhaps you've answered it. 21 But I'm wondering, what were the inmates told about 22 Dr. Heller? 23 Was there a sense that he was a doctor 24 that might provide medical care, in contract to 25 somebody who might be brought in from the outside for 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 269 1 the purpose of doing pure, pure research maneuvers? 2 And your answer partly addressed that 3 when you said Dr. Heller wouldn't let anything happen 4 to people, and you'd get good medical care. So I 5 wonder if you can elaborate again. 6 MR. BIBEAU: Primarily he was a doctor 7 that ran the experiments. We knew that he was a 8 doctor of international renown, you know, which are, 9 his brother's, one thing that was stressed on us, and 10 I never could figure out why, his brother was an 11 advisor, Kennedy's economic advisor. 12 It was, it was stressed to me through 13 Baxter, and not through Dr. Heller himself, that, 14 that if there was anything that would go wrong with 15 us, the medical team in Seattle would make sure that 16 we were taken care of, you know, because he didn't 17 want to lose people. He didn't want to lose people 18 through some common malady. 19 DR. MACKLIN: No, I'm just, just a 20 quick followup. I thought I heard you say that while 21 in prison inmates would get better medical care. 22 There was a promise, in addition to the 23 money and any other psychological incentives, was 24 there a promise that those who were actually in the 25 experiments would in the course of that, not if 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 270 1 anything went wrong, but just simply as a routine 2 matter of getting care while in, medical care while 3 in prison? Was that part of the -- 4 MR. BIBEAU: That was implied. That 5 was strongly implied by Baxter. But, again, Dr. 6 Heller never did say that. 7 Again, I never did hear that from Dr. 8 Heller himself. It was from one of the other 9 inmates. 10 THE CHAIR: Henry. 11 DR. ROYAL: I just wonder if you could 12 clarify what it is that people thought they were 13 volunteering, or what it was they thought they were 14 doing, and what were the things that they didn't 15 understand about the experiment. Maybe I could ask 16 you specifically: 17 Did they know that after this 18 experiment that they would be sterile because they 19 were agreeing also to have a vasectomy? Is that 20 true? 21 MR. BIBEAU: Right. 22 DR. ROYAL: And they knew that 23 radiation was involved; that they were going to be 24 irradiated? That is true? 25 MR. BIBEAU: I don't think anybody 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 271 1 really understood what radiation would do to you at 2 that time. 3 DR. ROYAL: But the word "radiation" 4 was mentioned, or not mentioned? 5 MR. BIBEAU: No, they talked, radiation 6 was mentioned, but it was in X-rays. And I was told 7 at one time that, you know, the machine is just like 8 going down and having your chest x-rayed, something I 9 found out there's a difference between exposure to 10 chest X-rays and the exposure to these. They were 11 not comparable at all. 12 DR. ROYAL: Was the radiation done at 13 the prison, or were you ever brought -- 14 MR. BIBEAU: At the prison. Dr. Heller 15 has a special machine built. He had it designed in 16 and built specifically for the program. 17 I'd been looking for, I know that 18 Battelle tested the machine at one time, and I've 19 been looking for the tests. I wanted to find out 20 what the leakages were, where the leakages occurred, 21 and things. And I haven't been able to find records 22 of the test yet. 23 The machine just vanished. I don't 24 know what happened to the machine. Vanished. 25 THE CHAIR: Susan? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 272 1 DR. LEDERER: Yes, I just have two 2 quick questions. Did I understand you to say that no 3 one, not being a Catholic, or you could not be a 4 Catholic to participate in these experiments? 5 MR. BIBEAU: The Catholic chaplain 6 objected to the program, and to appease him, he, Dr. 7 Heller said there would be no Catholics on the 8 program, period. 9 DR. LEDERER: Okay. And my second 10 question was, were there other types of experiments 11 being conducted? 12 MR. BIBEAU: Yes. 13 DR. LEDERER: Could you elaborate? 14 MR. BIBEAU: They were testicular 15 injections. It calls for six microcuries per testes, 16 I believe. 17 And he was, the only, the only record 18 we can find of this, of dosage on one of these 19 injections, the guy got 50, which is eight times more 20 than what was called for in the protocol. 21 He was also involved, since from 1957 22 all the way into the radiation program he was doing 23 hormone experiments. Some of the men were on both, 24 both experiments, so they were receiving hormones and 25 they were receiving progesterones, and all sorts of 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 273 1 bizarre things were happening to them. 2 And even though their bodies were going 3 through the things they were going through because of 4 the hormone problem, it was definitely the radiation 5 also. I think that that's a, that really complicates 6 things. 7 DR. LEDERER: Do, do you have records 8 relating to that? 9 MR. BIBEAU: Yes? 10 DR. LEDERER: Would you allow the 11 Committee to see those? 12 THE CHAIR: Reed has a question first. 13 DR. TUCKSON: Do you happen to know if 14 any records exist of the Catholic chaplin's 15 concerns, and whether or not those concerns were 16 expressed either to the medical team or to the prison 17 administration? 18 MR. BIBEAU: I have letters that relate 19 to that. Not from the Catholic chaplain, though. 20 DR. TUCKSON: If you could share that, 21 that, it, it wold be important, I think. 22 MR. BIBEAU: Okay. 23 THE CHAIR: It's clear, Mr. Bibeau, 24 anything that bears on your experience at the time 25 would be obviously very important to us. We 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 274 1 appreciate very much your coming here. 2 MR. BIBEAU: Okay. 3 THE CHAIR: Thank you so much. 4 Our next speaker is Ms. Cherie 5 Anderson, if she's here. And she's going to be 6 accomplished by Mr. Tom Wilson. 7 Mrs. Anderson, it's, it's nice to meet 8 you. We heard a statement of yours, we listened to a 9 statement of yours at our June meeting, so it's very 10 nice to get an opportunity to meet you. 11 Ms. Anderson: Thank you. 12 THE CHAIR: Thank you for coming. 13 PRESENTATION BY Cherie Anderson: 14 MS. Anderson: I didn't bring a 15 prepared statement. I was up most of the night with 16 a lot of fear and a lot of physical pain, which is 17 What I, seems to be my destiny in life. 18 I was laid on a table when I was six 19 years old by military doctors at Travis Air Base, 20 which is maybe 50 miles from here, and they shoved 21 radium capsules up my nostrils and left them there 22 for ten to 15 minutes. They did this four different 23 times over a 30-day period. 24 They didn't even document the amount 25 that was used. I've heard estimates of it, but since 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 275 1 I'm not a, a physicist or an expert I'm not going to 2 quote it. But I know that it is enough to cause 3 significant damage. 4 The next year I caught polio, and I've 5 been told by my physicians that radium compromises 6 your immune system. No one else in that elementary 7 school on that air base had polio that year. I was 8 the only child in that school of that age group. 9 I had several subsequent surgeries 10 because of the polio. I was started on the course 11 with pain killers when I was 11 years old that was to 12 cause me a great deal of trouble into my adult life. 13 When I was 22 they found two breast 14 tumors. When I was, I don't know how old, maybe 30, 15 I went to the doctor for routine lab work and they 16 came back with something called grume formation, 17 which is where the red blood cells come together and 18 make chains. It's usually indicative of some kind of 19 pre-cancerous state, is what I was told. 20 I've developed rashes. I have 21 Hashimoto's disease, which is an immune disease that 22 attacks the thyroid, and when the thyroid is removed 23 it attacks other things. It leaves you, leaves a 24 person suspectible to many other illnesses. 25 I had thyroid tumors that were 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 276 1 subsequently removed after 11 years of going to 2 different experts and being told different things 3 because there was no consistency in the medical 4 community. 5 When I was around 35 years old I 6 started losing my teeth. I would go the dentist 7 complaining of pain. They would take an X-ray and 8 say, "There's no obvious pathology on this." 9 And I'd say, "There's something going 10 on." 11 And they would open it up to do a root 12 canal and find the tooth was dead. There was no 13 viable pulp that was alive. 14 Over the next five to six years I've 15 lost all of my upper teeth and all but six of my 16 lower teeth. I've developed osteoporosis of the 17 lower back. 18 I've got small tumors on my arms. 19 Right now I'm going to a doctor to rule out bone 20 cancer. I have pain in my back and cervical spine 21 and ribs that's inexplicable. 22 I think I heard someone else address 23 the psychological issues. I've learned to live with 24 physical pain in part of my life, but I haven't yet 25 learned how to live with the fear that comes at 3:00 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 277 1 a.m. 2 I didn't have a prepared statement. I 3 don't have anything brilliant to add to what's been 4 said. 5 I'm here as a private citizen, as 6 someone's daughter, someone's mother, someone's 7 grandmother. My father served this country for 21 8 years flying glider planes. He flew gliders into 9 Nazi-occupied France and Holland and he believed that 10 the military would give his children good care. 11 And when I asked my mother if they told 12 her that the radium could cause problems, and she 13 said, "Well, my God, no. Do you think I would have 14 let them do that to you if I would have known?" 15 I don't think any of you would allow 16 that to happen to your children. 17 I told my story to a reporter in 18 February, and I expected to go about my business. I 19 just wanted it to be known what had been done, and 20 with the publicity going on I figured that they would 21 at least give us a voice. 22 And as a result of some of those 23 stories that have appeared I have receive hundreds 24 of letters and phone calls from people. I can take 25 up most of your day reiterating stories of people 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 278 1 that were given abusive amounts of radiation, radium 2 for benign conditions, but I won't do that. 3 I will just let it, let it stand that I 4 have a lot of people that I have heard from. That 5 compelled me to start a group in the Sacramento area. 6 We get together approximately once a month to discuss 7 what's going on, what progress is being made. 8 One of the members of my group that 9 came in as a result of reading this story in the 10 newspapers, he went to a doctor and found out that he 11 had thyroid tumors. And up to that point in time he 12 did not know that there was a connection between 13 exposure to radiation and thyroid tumors. 14 And that's basically what I have made 15 it my mission to do, is to get word out to people 16 that are not suspecting what is going on, and are 17 sitting around with these growths in their bodies. 18 And they're dying, and they don't know why. 19 I've been told that, and I've heard 20 people say that what was done to me might not 21 necessarily be an experiment, and I'd like to address 22 that, simply because, well, I think I can best do it 23 by reading a couple of the paragraphs from the letter 24 I wrote you several months ago. 25 As far as the nasopharyngeal 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 279 1 irradiation being a valid medical practice, we would 2 ask the Government to produce the statistically valid 3 medical studies that examine the efficacy and safety 4 of this treatment. We would also ask the federal 5 agencies which review these studies and approve this 6 practice to release their documents regarding such 7 review and approval. 8 We would then ask the Federal 9 Government to release any data that they have relied 10 on in determining which children the massive doses of 11 radium was administered to and how that is the, the, 12 a safe practice. 13 Finally, since this practice was 14 subsequently discontinued, what statistically valid 15 studies were used to invalidate the prior treatment? 16 We would ask that the Federal Government release all 17 information which lead to the discontinuation of the 18 irradiation practices. This should include any 19 settings that discuss errors in the previously- 20 approved studies. 21 If someone can produce those studies 22 for me, I will go home and be quiet. I won't bother 23 you people any more with my complaints. But so far I 24 haven't heard of any studies that were done. 25 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 280 1 MS. ANDERSON: And I think that's 2 unfair. They do that with studies on animals, and 3 people who complain about studies on animals, I find 4 that offensive, due to the fact that these things 5 were done to us without any prior approval given. 6 And that's basically just what I wanted 7 to do, was come here today and meet the Committee and 8 put a face to what's been done. You know, I was a 9 six-year-old child. My parents live with a lot of 10 guilt. 11 THE CHAIR: Ms. Anderson, we're very 12 grateful that you have come, and we never think of 13 your comments as complaining, but rather as helping 14 us to do our work perhaps better for it. 15 MS. ANDERSON: I think Tom has 16 something to say. 17 THE CHAIR: Oh, I'm very sorry. Mr. 18 Wilson. 19 PRESENTATION BY TOM WILSON: 20 MR. WILSON: My name is, my name is Tom 21 Wilson. I, at the age of three weeks old I had a box 22 of radium strapped on my arm three different 23 occasions. My mother held me during this time. 24 Subsequently the, I received the, a 25 radium, or a radiation burn on my arm. The primary 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 281 1 reason given at the time was that I had a small 2 growth on my arm which appeared to be getting larger. 3 Subsequently, at the age of seven, I 4 also received high doses of X-ray therapy. This was 5 to the neck and ear and throat area, associated 6 primarily my, with a, what, what was a post-nasal 7 drip. That was what they elected to do. 8 I simply would just like the Committee 9 to address the issue of what is considered accepted 10 medical procedure, versus what is a (sic) 11 experimental procedure. An experiment is defined as 12 any action taken to discover something not yet known, 13 or to demonstrate or test something known. 14 My feeling is that my exposure to 15 radiation and the effects were known. That did not 16 stop my exposure. Thank you. 17 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. I, I, 18 I'm sorry. I didn't understand that you had a 19 statement to make as well, and I'm glad that, that we 20 had a chance to hear from you. 21 And if we can get, we'll have your 22 statements for the Record, and we know how to find 23 you both. 24 Are there questions? Ruth? 25 DR. MACKLIN: Ms. Anderson, would you 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 282 1 described what happened to you at six, age six? It 2 was probably a very vivid experience, and you could 3 recount and remember being tied down and have 4 something pushed up your nostril. 5 What were the circumstances under which 6 you discovered that it was radium, or were the 7 circumstances that your mother discovered it? In 8 other words, how did it come about? 9 You knew something happened at that 10 time. When and under what circumstance did you 11 and/or your mother discover or learn that it, it was 12 radium that had been inserted? 13 MS. ANDERSON: It was given to me for 14 sinus problems. That's what they told me; to prevent 15 the spread of lymphoid tissue in my throat, which, 16 with sinus infection, your lymphoid tissue naturally 17 spreads. 18 I got suspicious, curious, whatever you 19 want to tall it, and sent for my medical records some 20 time ago, -- This was before this suspicious fire 21 the burned down half of the St. Louis storage, or 22 whatever it was. -- and, and got hold of my medical 23 records. 24 And it plainly said on there, "radium." 25 In fact, on the consult, in fact I should have 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 283 1 brought a copy, but on the consult the doctor had 2 said that I had, that I was receiving radium. 3 And he said that, this was on November 4 seventh, he said, "eyes okay, ears okay, nose clear, 5 throat clear. Continue radium the next one month." 6 And my contention was, since everything 7 was so clear why would he continue the radium except 8 to see what was done, except as an experimental 9 procedure, since my parents were not informed? 10 DR. MACKLIN: But I think you said, 11 correct me if I misheard, that your mother was told 12 initially when the first treatment was done that it 13 was radium, but it would result in nothing else. 14 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, she was told it was 15 radium, but that meant as much to her as "petroleum 16 jelly." She was not a scientist, and they did not 17 inform her of any side effects. 18 THE CHAIR: Nancy. 19 DR. OEILNICK: Are you aware of, or is 20 there in your medical record any follow up other than 21 what you've just told us now? Did the doctors 22 actually, I don't know, did the doctors actually 23 follow up on your case to determine what types of 24 events happened after the radium treatments? 25 MS. ANDERSON: They had me come in 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 284 1 through the several months that I was being seen 2 there. They had me come in for lab work, which 3 wasn't really relevant to anything. 4 My contention, it, was hat it was to 5 see what was going on with my blood. And I have got 6 chest X-rays I neglected to bring for that for -- 7 DR. OLEINICK: That's --. 8 THE CHAIR: Thank you. That's great. 9 Bill? 10 DR. RUSSELL: What hospital? And was 11 it an EMT? 12 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, it was a medical 13 center at Travis Air Force Base. 14 DR. RUSSELL: Travis. 15 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. 16 THE CHAIR: Mary Ann. 17 DR. STEVENSON: Do you have any 18 understanding how many children were treated through 19 Travis or other medical facilities? 20 MS. ANDERSON: I'm -- not really. 21 There's been a lot. I don't think anybody else in my 22 group were ever treated at Travis. 23 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. 24 Duncan. 25 DR. THOMAS: I just want to thank you 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 285 1 for raising this question from the context of, it's 2 ne we haven't been able to do very successfully so 3 far, and I want to, you've raised some interesting 4 questions. 5 I, for one, would like to know whether 6 or not there was at any stage any government approval 7 such as FDA grants today; and if so, how that came 8 about. 9 And during this period, that would 10 focus on 1944 to 1977, if if, was there never 11 funding for radiation from the Government? And I'm 12 curious how it came back that there was, this 13 agreement was decided. So those are some good 14 questions. 15 THE CHAIR: Yes. We have some good 16 questions. 17 DR. TUCKSON: Tom, where was your 18 hospital, also? Was it Travis also? 19 MR. WILSON: NO, it was not. The 20 radiation strapped to my arm was done at Redlands 21 Community Hospital at Redlands, California. The 22 X-ray therapy to my head and neck area was done at 23 San Antonio Hospital in Ontario, California, 24 Rockland, California. 25 THE CHAIR: Lois? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 286 1 MS. NORRIS: Mr. Wilson, do you know if 2 your mother was ever told that you were being, this 3 was an experimental procedure? You're, I'm thinking 4 the, primarily the radium strapped to your arm. 5 Was that described to her as an 6 experimental procedure? Did she say you were 7 participating in research? 8 MR. WILSON: I don't believe, no, I do 9 not believe that from her recollection she was told 10 this was an experiment. 11 MS. NORRIS: Thank you. 12 THE CHAIR: Mrs. Anderson and Mr. 13 Wilson, thank you very much. And any further 14 documentation or communication with the Committee 15 would be appreciated. Thank you. 16 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you for your time. 17 THE CHAIR: Oh, please. It's important 18 for us. 19 We're going to take a break at this 20 time, a ten-minute break, so it's now, I think we'll 21 reconvene in 15 minutes from now, 10:55. 22 (Whereupon, at 10:41 a.m. PT the 23 Committee took a brief recess, and returned at 11:08 24 a.m. PT, after which the following occurred:) 25 THE CHAIR: All right, where are my 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 287 1 colleagues? Folks. Okay. Wait. 2 Mrs. Casey, Mrs. Camp, Ms. Thrall, Mrs. 3 Fraser, and Mrs. Kelly, please see Kris if you have 4 not seen her yet. We would appreciate that. 5 Okay. I trust that everybody's fully 6 rested. We appreciate everyone's continuing to stay 7 with us as the morning continues. 8 Our first present is Mr. Michael 9 Yesley. 10 PRESENTATION BY MR. YESLEY: 11 MR. YESLEY: Thank you. Good morning, 12 members of the committee. I appreciate the 13 invitation of, from your staff to present a very 14 brief early history of the policy on informed consent 15 to human experimentation at Los Alamos National 16 Laboratory, which during the period in question was 17 called "Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory." 18 I have a prepared statement which I 19 believe has been distributed to you all. I have a 20 few more copies if anyone needs them. 21 Also, in my statement I referred to 22 several original documents. I've provided a single 23 copy to your staff. I'm not sure if that's been 24 distributed, but all of the documents that I will 25 refer to are available. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 288 1 I will not be discussing any scientific 2 issues here today. In fact, I'm an attorney. 3 It is our intention to present a panel 4 of scientists who conducted or who are knowledgeable 5 about human experimentation in Los Alamos Scientific 6 Laboratory at the hearing that you'll be holding in 7 Albuquerque or Santa Fe next January. IN the 8 meantime, as you are probably aware, Los Alamos 9 National Lab has established a Human Subjects Project 10 Team as of last January to locate and disclose to the 11 public all documents in our possession that are 12 relevant to the human radiation and other experiments 13 that were identified in the Executive Order that 14 created this, this committee. 15 This team at Los Alamos had released 16 over 1,500 documents to date, over 1,500 documents to 17 date. I have with me a recent printout of the 18 bibliography of all of these documents, which I will 19 leave with you rather than carry back to New Mexico. 20 Only a few documents, which I believe 21 are not material to your inquiry, have been withheld 22 as classified information. And I don't think that 23 that will be an issue with any research conducted at 24 Los Alamos. 25 Today I'll discuss some documents that 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 289 1 have been released that are germane to informed 2 consent prior to the establishment of Los Alamos' IRB 3 in 1971. 4 The, the earliest document that we 5 located concerning informed consent to clinical 6 research in which Los Alamos was involved was a 7 December 19, 1951, memorandum from Dr. Thomas 8 Shipman, who was head of the Health Division, to the 9 Executive Committee of the Medical Staff at Los 10 Alamos Medical Center. It was a hospital facility 11 independently managed from the laboratory, but 12 obviously very, very close by. 13 In this memorandum to the hospital's 14 executive committee Dr. Shipman stresses the 15 importance of explaining experimental procedures to 16 the patients, and obtaining their informed consent. 17 He says, " ... we should not carry out," " ... we 18 should not carry out on a patient a procedure even 19 mildly experimental while intimating to the patient 20 that this is a part [of,] of his regular treatment." 21 Any written evidence of the 22 implementation of this policy would be contained in 23 the patient records, to which we do not have access. 24 Strictly as an anecdotal matter, one of 25 our staff members did call a physician who was 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 290 1 involved in this ex-, experimental treatment at the 2 medical center. That physician did check a single 3 patient's file, and found evidence of some sort, but 4 I'm not sure if it was a signed consent form or the 5 physician's own statement that he had obtained 6 informed consent. 7 But at least this in that one case, 8 which admittedly is anecdotal, we were able to 9 ascertain that there was something evidencing 10 informed consent in the patient, in the patient 11 records. 12 The earliest human experimentation at 13 Los Alamos Scientific Lab involving exposure to 14 radiation was the tritium studies which were 15 conducted on the investigators themselves; 16 subsequently also on some people who have been exposed 17 accidentally. So there's no informed consent 18 involved in that. 19 They were three investigators. They 20 were, they were people who were actually doing the 21 research. I think it can be inferred. 22 When, when tracer studies increased in 23 mid-1956 with the coming into operation of the first 24 whole-body radiation counter, Dr. Shipman sent a 25 memorandum to a distribution of people at the Los 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 291 1 Alamos Radiation Laboratory, stating that, " ... that 2 guiding principles and ... binding rules" for 3 administration of tracer doses in human volunteers 4 would be the following, and these were lifted from a 5 letter to him that he had, he had received a few days 6 before from Dr. Charles Dunham of the Atomic Energy 7 Commission's Division of Biology and Medicine. These 8 were the four guiding principles for tracer studies: 9 First, each experiment which requires 10 the administration of tracer doses to human 11 volunteers must have the written approval of the 12 Health Division Leader or his alternate. 13 Second, the request of such approval 14 must contain a statement as to the maximum dose to be 15 administered, together with a statement of, as to the 16 maximum permissible dose of such materials. 17 Third, all subjects will be bona fide 18 volunteers who are fully informed as to the procedure 19 to be carried out. 20 And finally, fourth, the administration 21 of any such doses shall be carried out only under the 22 immediate, direct supervision of a physician licensed 23 in New Mexico. 24 To our knowledge, this policy was 25 followed in the tracer studies. You will note it 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 292 1 does not mention a written consent form, and we have 2 not located any such forms. 3 I've referred to other documents in my 4 prepared testimony that seek approval for tracer 5 studies, state the doses, state the maximum 6 permissible doses, and state that subjects will be 7 informed volunteers. Given this policy, we do not 8 expect to find consent forms, signed consent forms, 9 and we haven't found any as of yet. 10 In five minutes you can't cover very 11 much, but I'll be glad to try to answer any of your 12 questions or to get you answers to the questions that 13 I can't provide today. 14 One statement, in, in closing: I'd 15 like to say that Los Alamos National Lab shares, and 16 has demonstrated, I think, that it shares the goal of 17 this Committee to develop all relevant information 18 within the committee's charter. 19 We've already released virtually all 20 documents that we were able to identify on our own 21 initiation. But our Human Studies Project will 22 remain open for business for the next half year or 23 however long it takes to respond to your additional 24 inquiries. 25 Thank you. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 293 1 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Yesley. 2 Questions? 3 MR. GUTTMAN: Yes. We're working, as a 4 status of the staff around the Committee, with Los 5 Alamos to try to get to all the things that are 6 important. 7 Just one question. Obviously it's 8 really striking that Los Alamos has a series of 9 pretty clear policies and memos. As you say, there 10 was a lot of volunteering by the lab people. 11 Is there any documented evidence that 12 these policies of consent apply to indigent people, I 13 think, indigent people or the Kiwanis Club, or -- it 14 was something you mentioned, or what document or oral 15 evidence that apply across the Board, any kind of 16 proof? Indigents? Kiwanis Club people? 17 MR. YESLEY: Well, the indigents, as 18 far as I can tell, the indigents would be the people 19 who were coming to the clinic for diagnostic 20 purposes. The only reason why we know it, they were 21 indigent, is a fund was established to allow them to 22 travel up and spend on night in the hospital in 23 order to receive diagnosis. 24 These would be people who were referred 25 by their physician. And once again, as in the other 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 294 1 cases involving the medical center, that, any sort of 2 evidence would be contained in their medical records, 3 which remains at Los Alamos. 4 As to the Kiwanis and any other set of 5 normal volunteers, what I would, the only thing I can 6 refer you back to is that when you're talking about 7 normal volunteers, not, not prison, not in any other 8 way coerced, as your own staff person pointed out 9 some months ago, they don't come in without some 10 explanation, without something being told to them. 11 At least not people who were shanghai. 12 They were asked to come in, and 13 explanations given to them as to why they were given 14 this. 15 MR. GUTTMAN: But by the same token, 16 we're talking about the Kiwanis Club. Some of these 17 people were, it was a fairly speculative group. Are 18 there any of those still around? 19 MR. YESLEY: I would hope so. I can 20 say that as an attorney our research has been devoted 21 to documents, and not to an investigation devoted 22 beyond documents. 23 THE CHAIR: I've got Reed, Duncan, and 24 Phil, and about three minutes. 25 MR. GUTTMAN: I guess we'll continue 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 295 1 this in -- 2 THE CHAIR: Short questions. 3 DR. TUCKSON: Actually on this point 4 that you just raised, when you say we're working with 5 them to go over that data, will we be able to get 6 access, or does the data base for those that are 7 called indigents that are referred out from other 8 places in this, the state, for the diagnosis, who 9 then gets caught up in, in, in some of the 10 experimental protocols? 11 MR. YESLEY: They would go, they would 12 not be used in any experimental type of protocol. 13 They would be used strictly for diagnosis. 14 MR. GUTTMAN: Well, obviously we'll 15 have to look into that, but it's, you know, we'll get 16 into that. 17 DR. TUCKSON: Thanks. That's what I 18 want to know. 19 THE CHAIR: So that's one issue we want 20 to nail down. 21 Duncan. 22 DR. THOMAS: You spoke briefly about 23 specifically experimentation, self-experimentation. 24 Do you know of any instances of experimentation by 25 investigators on children that would -- first of all, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 296 1 do you know anything of this issue? And if so, were 2 there any formal guidelines? 3 MR. YESLEY: Yes, sir. It certainly 4 came up. 5 There was research done on 6 investigators' own children. I believe the number is 7 eight children. 8 I've spent a lot of time talking to the 9 fathers of four of those children. I do not believe 10 that there were, that there were any special 11 guidelines because of, the investigators themselves 12 were knowledgeable. 13 And whether, whether or not that would 14 be permissible under current regulations for research 15 on children, which I, myself, was involved in, in 16 setting up many years ago, is that the investigators 17 believed that they had the authority to, to have 18 their children participate. 19 I should also say that the doses are 20 known, and I think the reference is made to them in 21 my prepared statement. 22 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 23 Ruth. 24 DR. MACKLIN: In the written statement 25 that you provided that shows evidence of the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 297 1 existence of these guiding principles and binding 2 rules, it says that the memorandum that, the 1956 3 memo to supervisory staff involved in human 4 experimentation, how can we get at the question, to 5 your knowledge, how can we get at the question of 6 what came in the form of a memo to sup-, supervisory 7 staff that's translated into practice by the doctors 8 who did the research? 9 It's one thing, and of course the 10 Committee is looking at any kind of documentation 11 that there was policies, binding rules, or whatever. 12 It's quite another thing, which we can't find in a 13 piece of paper, to ascertain that those policies 14 given at some level were actually implemented, 15 followed, even known to, and much less carried out. 16 Can you give us any clues about that? 17 MR. YESLEY: Well, that's certainly a, 18 a, a concern which, which I share myself. And I 19 think that the only way to get to the bottom of it, 20 I, I don't expect to find documentation of it, but I 21 do expect to make our scientists available to your 22 staff at any time, and available to you in, in 23 January. 24 And that's the best way to do it, is to 25 ask them what they're aware of. And while we have 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 298 1 had certain scientists involved in assisting with our 2 project, we're willing, or, or you may do it 3 directly, to involve any other scientists that may 4 have been identified as having been involved. 5 DR. ROYAL: At our last committee 6 meeting I mentioned that there was a CNN documentary 7 done in Los Alamos. I'm not sure that we've ever 8 obtained that tape, and if you could make that 9 available to us --. 10 MR. YESLEY: Well, I, I haven't seen 11 it, but I think we have it. And I'm told that in it 12 there were interviews with an, four or five people. 13 DR. ROYAL: With the children, with the 14 children that were involved. So I think it would be 15 a very valuable thing for us to see. 16 THE CHAIR: Yes, I have to say that 17 there's agreement. 18 Phil? 19 DR. RUSSELL: You mentioned that the 20 memo in December of '51 stated the policy. Within 21 the culture of the laboratory at the time what would 22 be the form of that memo? 23 Was it a suggestion? Was, was it a 24 policy statement, or did it have some regulatory 25 policy muscle behind it? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 299 1 MR. YESLEY: Well, that memo came from 2 the Laboratory to the Hospital, and it was certainly 3 stated in strong terms. But as to the influence over 4 independent physicians at the hospital, once again, 5 the best, the best way to see what force and effect 6 that memorandum had is to somehow get into the 7 hospital's records. 8 MR. GUTTMAN: Did I get, did I get. 9 Michael, are the records going to be preserved? 10 There's some talk about possible destruction. 11 I just want to be clear on the Record. 12 Have you dealt with that? 13 MR. YESLEY: Well, to our knowledge 14 there's been no destruction to date, and I've tried 15 to follow up on rumors that there was going to be a 16 destruction, and of course it's something that's 17 independent from this committee's work, but it arises 18 from some criticism of the ability to preserve 19 privacy, and that's the reason that they're getting 20 rid of the old records. 21 We've not done anything. We're not in 22 a position to, except to find out. So far I haven't 23 gotten any information on that. 24 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. 25 Yesley. We appreciate it. And we appreciate your 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 300 1 continued cooperation. 2 Our next speaker is Ms. Lynne 3 Stembridge. Is Ms. Stembridge here? 4 We want to apologize. I don't know if 5 this is coming -- but there is a background hum from 6 ground noise. But it's not the fan. We don't know 7 what it is. 8 But the problem is that it's even more 9 important that everybody speak into the mic. I don't 10 know what it's like in the back of the room, but it 11 is a really distracting sound base. 12 So if everybody would just speak even 13 more carefully into the mic, that would at least help 14 balance out what that is. 15 Thank you very much for coming, and we 16 look forward to hear your comments. 17 PRESENTATION BY LYNNE STEMBRIDGE: 18 MS. STEMBRIDGE: Thank you, ladies and 19 gentleman, and members of the committee. My name is 20 Lynne Stembridge, and I'm Executive Director of HEAL, 21 the Hanford Education Action League. HEAL is a 22 non-partisan, non-profit organization located in 23 spokane, Washington. 24 Just for your information, Spokane is 25 located about 150 miles northeast of the Hanford site 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 301 1 in Washington State. HEAL was founded in the summer 2 of 1984 by a diverse group of Spokane citizens 3 alarmed about the lack of public accounts and, and 4 America's nuclear problems. 5 From a, an all-volunteer study group, 6 HEAL has grown into a major organization composed of 7 citizens spread across eastern Washington State, the 8 Pacific northwest, and around the world. HEAL exists 9 to help redress the harms that the nuclear weapons 10 complex has caused. 11 To accomplish this goal, HEAL gathers, 12 analyzes, and disseminated information about the 13 continuing effects of nuclear weapons production on 14 health, the environment, and the well begin of 15 democracy. And HEAL focuses on the Hanford 16 reservation because our research has demonstrated how 17 irresponsible officials at that site have been in 18 their efforts to erode democracy and promote nuclear 19 weapons, at the expense of environmental quality, 20 public health, and human decency. 21 When the first 19,000 pages of 22 historical documents about Hanford were finally 23 released after intense public pressure, it was HEAL's 24 staff of volunteers that combed through every page. 25 HEAL staff member Time Connor found the smoking gun, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 302 1 the reference that led to the discovery of the 2 infamous Green Run experiment in Hanford in December, 3 1949. 4 As you are doubtless aware, that 5 deliberate release of almost 8,000 curies of 6 Iodine-131 blanketed the Pacific Northwest with 7 radiation. Information regarding that radiation 8 release was kept secret for almost 40 years. 9 There was no warning. There was not 10 informed consent. Citizens down wind were never 11 advised of measures that could have been taken to 12 safeguard the health of themselves of their children. 13 Although the Green Run was not as 14 direct as handing a patient orange juice laced with 15 radioactivity, or giving someone an injection, the 16 Green Run was every bit as intentional, every bit as 17 experimental, every bit as unethical and immoral says 18 the medical experiments which have made headlines 19 over the last year. 20 Shockingly, portions of the documents 21 explaining the full scope of the Green Run continue 22 to be classified and withheld by the United States 23 Air Force. HEAL has filed FOIA after FOIA, appeal 24 after appeal, to no avail. 25 I would submit to you that one of the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 303 1 most important tasks that you could perform for the 2 citizens of the Northwest is to see to it that these 3 documents in their unclassified entirety are at long 4 last released into the public domain. This committee 5 is tasked with a number of weighty and difficult 6 tasks, and about which you are about to formulate 7 recommendations. 8 HEAL believes that damages have been 9 done to members of our society. Exposures to 10 radiation, no matter how small the dose amounts, 11 carries additional risks. 12 It has taken many forms. Its full 13 measure will likely not be assessable in our 14 lifetimes. 15 That does not, however, absolve us from 16 the responsibility of doing what we can. I would 17 urge you with most profound sincerity to recommend an 18 apology and a formal acknowledgment from the highest 19 levels of our government of the monstrous betrayal of 20 public confidence which this sad chapter of U.S. 21 history combines. 22 I'd also like to draw your attention to 23 potentials for further betrayal created by the 24 amendments to the National Defense Authorization Act 25 of 1991, and a copy of this, of that Health 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 304 1 Information Network's operational plan is included in 2 the packet of information which I believe you've all 3 received. 4 The network was charged with premiering 5 and distributing information on the effects of 6 radiation to health care professionals, i.e., patient 7 information, and this has also included information 8 provided to people who have called in about how to 9 talk to their doctors if they believe they were in 10 fact exposed to Hanford radiation. 11 I think it's eloquently been heard here 12 this morning where, if there would have been a little 13 more of that done back in the '40s and '50s, it would 14 have saved so many people such incredible pain and 15 suffering. 16 The network is also charged with 17 contacting and bringing information to persons who 18 may have been exposed. Please not that the language 19 "may have been exposed" was intended only to make 20 network services available to as many people as 21 possible, whether or not they would choose to 22 identify themselves as a downwinder. 23 This has included original educational 24 publications, reprints of a wide spectrum of existing 25 information, and toll-free information support lines 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 305 1 staffed by health care providers. The network is 2 also evaluating, and if feasible will implement 3 registration and monitoring of persons who may have 4 been exposed to radiation releases from Hanford. 5 The network is well under way to 6 exposing further radiation release violations, and is 7 closely working with professionals and advisors at 8 Gonzaga University in Spokane. It's the network's 9 hope that such an archive can serve as a repository 10 of the anecdotal history of the Hanford downwinders. 11 Having completed its original three- 12 year authorization, the network was successful this 13 past summer in securing an additional year of 14 funding, and in securing specifically the federal 15 protection language regarding the confidentiality of 16 donations to the archive. 17 The network has not been without 18 controversy. However, I bring it to your attention 19 because many, many people availing themselves of the 20 network's service have spoken about how powerful the 21 network has been. 22 Compensation may not be just about 23 receiving a check. I'd urge you as committee 24 members, first push the things outside the box to 25 deal with tragedies of the past and preparation in 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 306 1 the future. 2 Second, and most importantly, seek ways 3 to remind yourselves and this Government, now and in 4 the future, that these wrongs are not about nameless, 5 faceless subjects. Do not lose sight of the toll 6 exacted on citizens exposed to radiation, and the 7 toll this has taken to the very facts of democracy. 8 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms. 9 Stembridge. Stay there in case there are questions. 10 Are there questions of Ms. Stembridge? 11 MR. GUTTMAN: Let me ask you, your 12 understanding is the same as ours, that the Air Force 13 has, the DOE has told us that all the documents they 14 have related to Green Run are in fact in the public 15 domain. Is that your -- 16 MS. STEMBRIDGE: Yes, that is true. 17 And not only about the Green Run, but with another 18 series of documents regarding another experiment 19 called Blue Nose. 20 Department of Energy has advised that 21 they finished their review of June of 1992, and they 22 are waiting for review by some other agency, CIA, Air 23 Force, or something else. So though I'm not 24 frequently in a position of giving an at-a-boy to the 25 Department of Energy, this is not one of those. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 307 1 MR. GUTTMAN: Right. So the focus now 2 is on the Air Force? 3 MS. STEMBRIDGE: That's correct. 4 THE CHAIR: And we've all stated we've 5 sought it. 6 MR. GUTTMAN: Right. And the, this is 7 something that is sought, something to that effect. 8 Right. 9 MS. STEMBRIDGE: Right, pretty lame, 10 frankly, in my opinion. 11 MR. GUTTMAN: No comments. 12 THE CHAIR: Henry? 13 DR. ROYAL: Just to address that issue 14 of classified documents, the Committee is seeking 15 status of classified documents, so presumably during 16 this committee we'll be able to see these documents. 17 MR. GUTTMAN: The question that we have 18 before us is, this is a difficult balance. We don't 19 want to see them and then say, "We've seen them but 20 we can't tell you about them." 21 And so that's right. We can only look 22 at these documents if they're available to everybody. 23 Otherwise -- and so we're trying, that's a difficult 24 question and we're really, really anxious to work 25 with you, as well as, as the Air Force. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 308 1 MS. STEMBRIDGE: I urge you to work as 2 fast as you can, because our agency feels there's a 3 small and vanishing window to get this information 4 out, and we're looking to you as our best hope to get 5 this out. 6 THE CHAIR: We'll try. We, we are 7 certainly agreeing with getting those materials 8 declassified. 9 MR. GUTTMAN: At least we know they 10 exist. 11 MS. STEMBRIDGE: Yeah. 12 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. We 13 appreciate it, and this Committee feels it's 14 important. Other people think it's important, too. 15 Thank you very much. 16 Our next speaker is Trisha Pritikin. 17 PRESENTATION BY TRISHA PRITIKIN: 18 MS. PRITIKIN: Which mic? 19 Thank you for inviting me to testify 20 before the Committee in regard to Hanford. As you 21 just stated, my name is Trisha Pritikin. 22 I'm an attorney. I'm a registered 23 occupational therapist, and I'm a health-affected 24 downwinder of the Hanford facilities. 25 Can you hear me all right? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 309 1 THE CHAIR: If you keep speaking into 2 the mic it will be okay. Otherwise it gets fuzzy. 3 MS. PRITIKIN: I've already spoken with 4 several members of the committee over the phone. 5 I was born in the early 1950s in 6 Richland, Washington, which are, is a town 7 immediately adjacent to the Hanford facility. I 8 resided in Richland until I was approximately ten 9 years old. 10 In 1988, I was diagnosed with severe 11 hyperthyroidism. I've also suffered from chronic 12 fatigue syndrome and a number of other serious health 13 problems which I believe are related to my exposure 14 to Hanford. 15 I presently serve as co-chairperson of 16 the Resource Center Advisory Board of the Hanford 17 Health Information Network, and am on the Advisory 18 Board of the HEAL, which Lynne described to you very 19 well. I reside in Berkeley, California, and have 20 been brought into the Hanford Health Information 21 Network to represent the numerous people who are 22 downwinders of Hanford who moved outside the 23 three-state area. There are hundreds of Hanford 24 downwinders in California and all across the country. 25 Many people here may not have heard of 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 310 1 Hanford. Hanford began making plutonium for atom 2 bombs in September of 1944. 3 For more than 40 years radioactive 4 materials were released into the air, water, and soil 5 as a result of plutonium production. Most of the 6 public, however, did not know about these radioactive 7 releases until 1986, when Freedom of Information Act 8 requests by the public activists groups such as HEAL 9 resulted in approximately 19,000 pages of previously 10 classified or inaccessible documents were made 11 public. 12 I was not diagnosed with 13 hyperthyroidism in 1988, partially due to the 14 classified nature of the documents of Hanford. I 15 went for years being inappropriately diagnosed and 16 very sick. 17 Because of the limited time my 18 testimony will take, five minutes, I won't go into 19 the Green Run and certain other radioactive emissions 20 from Hanford. 21 Contained in the Charter of this 22 advisory committee, if I quote your definition from 23 Section 3 of the Charter of this committee, it reads 24 in part, "Experiments involving intentional 25 environmental releases of radiation that ... were 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 311 1 designed to test the human effects of ionizing 2 radiation; or (B) were designed to test the extent of 3 human exposure to ionizing radiation." 4 That is your definition of human 5 radiation experiments in your Charter. Human 6 radiation experiments at Hanford which must be 7 evaluated include the Green Rune of 1949, mentioned by 8 Lynne; project Blue Nose of the early 1950s; release 9 of approximately 280,000 curies of radioactive 10 Iodine-131 after Japan surrendered in 1945; and 11 release of approximately 20,000 curies of Iodine-131 12 between April and August of 1951, when the iodine 13 filters on the stacks of the Hanford facilities were 14 removed after they were clogged and broke down. 15 I have a complete list of these, these 16 human radiation experiments which I just mentioned 17 which I can provide to you or read into the 18 testimony. Most of the documents pertaining to these 19 events which I just mentioned remain classified and 20 inaccessible to the public in spite of Freedom of 21 Information Act requests. 22 These intentional radiation releases 23 were undertaken by Hanford officials presumably with 24 the knowledge that these releases posed risks to the 25 public. Action could have been taken to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 312 1 substantially curtail these releases. 2 Yet, no public announcements were made 3 except to assure people that Hanford was operating 4 safely, and the information was kept secret for more 5 than 40 years. 6 I have also created a list of suggested 7 key words that would perhaps assist in the analysis 8 of classified documents, and information pertaining 9 to the list of human radiation experiments I just 10 made to you. I also have spoken with a number of 11 downwinders who recall events around these times 12 which would support the notion that these were indeed 13 human radiation experiments. 14 I have created a list for that. I 15 could also read that to you. 16 Point number tow I'd like to make, 17 Hanford's radiation releases most likely violated 18 standards of informed consent existing at the time of 19 the experiments and that exist today. 20 Point three, Hanford's victims of 21 radiation experiments suffer diseases which logically 22 result from being targeted. I'd like to tell you 23 what downwinders are reporting frequently: thyroid 24 disease; thyroid cancer; hyperparathyroidism; chronic 25 fatigue syndrome; auto-immune diseases such as lupus, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 313 1 MS, and others; birth defects; lung diseases and 2 other cancers of the lung, breast and others; 3 non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, chronic indigestion; 4 infertility; other reproductive disorders; 5 fibromyalgia; recurrent migraine headaches; 6 suppressed immune system; salivary gland and throat 7 disorders. 8 If you look at the list of 9 radionuclides released from Hanford, and then compare 10 these diseases, you can see a logical link between 11 the radionuclides and the disease we are seeing. 12 I've created a list of the target organs that were 13 infected by the radionuclides that were released from 14 Hanford. 15 Iodine-131 affects the thyroid, the 16 parathyroid, and the GI tract. Ruthenium-103 affects 17 to whole body and lungs. Ruthenium-106 affects the 18 lungs and the GI tract. Strontium, Strontium-90 19 affects bone surfaces and red bone marrow. 20 Plutonium-239 affects the lungs and bone surfaces. 21 Cesium-144 affects the lungs and the GI tract. 22 Phosphorus-32, red bone marrow. Zinc-65, the whole 23 body. Arsenic-76, the GI tract and the stomach of 24 infants; sodium-24, the stomach; and neptunium-239, 25 the GI tract. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 314 1 Now, I have two more points which I'd 2 like to make, which I'll make quickly because I see 3 the red light blinking at me. Health studies must be 4 conducted on these diseases which can be logical. 5 Right now only thyroid disease is being 6 studied, and only thus far for the years 1942 to 7 1946. I was born in the early 1950s, and I'm not 8 being studied yet. 9 I have severe thyroid disease. There 10 are other diseases which I have mentioned would need 11 to be studied by this Committee. 12 My last point is a discussion of the 13 appropriate recommendation for abuses of human 14 subjects in the Hanford radiation experiments. This 15 Committee is charged with recommendation to the 16 Interagency Working Group of remedies for abuses of 17 human subjects in past radiation experiments. 18 My own assessments of, of appropriate 19 recommendation to human subjects, in order of 20 priority, is as follows: 21 One, no-cost medical monitoring for 22 health problems which can be statistically and 23 logically linked to intentional radiation emissions 24 and intentional exposures to radioactive substances 25 at Hanford. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 315 1 Number two, no-cost health care for the 2 rest of their lives of these individuals for these 3 health detriments. 4 Number three, compensation for the 5 medical bills, lost wages, pain and suffering, and 6 other problems associated with it. 7 Number 4, a public apology would 8 certainly help. 9 And as my final observation, this is a 10 personal note, it's hard to tell when someone comes 11 and talks in front of you, even though it's 12 enthusiastic or energetic, what an effect that these 13 diseases have on people. Not only is it depressing 14 to be chronically ill, but my, I'm unable to work 15 full-time. It's very depressing. 16 Thyroid disease has a lot of strange 17 components. I feel sick a lot of the time. 18 The, many of the downwinders I speak to 19 cannot hold down jobs. This, the affects of Hanford 20 personally has been devastating, and I think the more 21 people you hear from Hanford or other human radiation 22 survivors, the more I'm sure of the human toll. 23 That's all I have to say today. 24 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. And 25 that is the most important thing I think for us to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 316 1 understand. 2 Are there questions or comments for Ms. 3 Pritikin? Duncan? 4 DR. THOMAS: I'd like to revisit the 5 first points you raised about the experimental nature 6 of this. Setting aside Green Run, which I think we 7 are, we have no way to avoid thinking about it, it's 8 in our Charter, you mentioned other releases, and I 9 think you said in 1971 with the release of some 10 sulfur. Could you elaborate a little bit about the 11 ways in which that was experimental? 12 MS. PRITIKIN: Yeah. Again, this is 13 pertaining to the filter removal. 14 DR. THOMAS: Yes. 15 MS. PRITIKIN: Yes. Well I want to 16 again point out Section 3 of your charter, 17 "Experiments involving intentional environmental 18 releases of radiation that (A) were designed to test 19 human health effects of ionizing radiation; or (B) 20 were designed to test the extent of human exposure to 21 ionizing radiation." 22 When the filters were removed from the 23 stacks, now this is all my, to the best my knowledge, 24 there was a complete understanding of the 25 physiological dangers of being exposed to I-131. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 317 1 Nonetheless, the filters were removed and the I-131 2 allowed to be freely out of the stacks. 3 Now, if you, the point here is that the 4 officials who had these filters removed were fully 5 aware that there would be an effect on the human 6 populace, and they nonetheless released the I-131 7 into the populace with no warning to the people that 8 lived in the area. 9 DR. THOMAS: I accept both of those 10 points. What I'm having trouble with is 11 understanding, first of all, whether the purpose of 12 the exposure was to test human exposures, or the 13 effect on humans; and secondly, if that was the 14 purpose, how was it served on us, that some data was 15 going to be collected in order to test that theory? 16 MS. PRITIKIN: Okay. Okay. I feel 17 that, I guess what I'm, my goal right now is to point 18 out to you this incident which I don't think the 19 Committee was aware of before, the removal of the 20 filters, and to look at documents, whether they are 21 classified or unclassified at this point, to see what 22 sort of comments were made on the effect on the 23 populace, whether there was an interest in monitoring 24 that effect. 25 Since I do not have access presently to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 318 1 those documents, I cannot make a conclusive 2 statement. But I want the Committee to be aware of 3 that period of time. 4 Does that answer your question? 5 THE CHAIR: We've got Henry and, and 6 Phil. 7 DR. ROYAL: Could you tell us more 8 about the Blue Nose experiment? 9 MS. PRITIKIN: Yes, I have actually a 10 list here from a very reliable source of documents 11 which a FOIA was made, a request on March fifteenth, 12 1991, and the following documents were assigned the 13 tracking number RL91036. And I have a list of seven 14 documents pertaining to the Blue Nose Experiment. 15 It appeared to have occurred around 16 1951 or 1952. Because we have not, I say "we" 17 because HEAL and the people who have made the FOIA 18 request have not been able to obtain these documents, 19 I cannot comment further on them. 20 I think the Committee must look into 21 this list. I can give the, the Committee this list 22 of documents, the tracking numbers. 23 THE CHAIR: Yes, that would be very 24 helpful. 25 DR. ROYAL: Is it your understanding 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 319 1 that that actually pertains to I-131 documents? 2 MS. STEMBRIDGE: I don't know. 3 THE CHAIR: We need you to come into 4 the mic. Is there one on -- 5 MS. STEMBRIDGE: I don't know 6 specifically. The staff researcher who's filed this 7 FOIA, his name is Jim Thomas, knows Blue Nose inside 8 and out, and I have had a discussion with one of your 9 staff members and I'm going to forward to him 10 everything. 11 THE CHAIR: Excellent. Thank you very 12 much. 13 Phil? 14 DR. RUSSELL: My question is, relates 15 to subject documents, and that is, is there, have you 16 seen documents that, that describe the intents of 17 removing those filters? Was the -- 18 MS. PRITIKIN: You know that? I'll 19 I'll describe myself as the messenger. I'm the 20 person bringing the information to the Committee, but 21 I'm not the right agency or person to ask in regard 22 to the contents of the documents. 23 That would be either HEAL or Jim 24 Thomas, who was working the original declassified 25 documents. He would, they would be the best source 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 320 1 of information. 2 DR. RUSSELL: That's a very key issue. 3 THE CHAIR: We will pursue it. That's, 4 thank you very much. We appreciate your comments. 5 MS. PRITIKIN: Should I give this list 6 also, the key-words list? 7 THE CHAIR: Absolutely. Absolutely. 8 Any materials you feel we should need, like the list 9 of documents, is something. And I think if, hand it 10 to staff people as you go out the door. 11 MS. PRITIKIN: Anybody in particular? 12 THE CHAIR: Anybody. Anybody in 13 particular. 14 I need to see Mrs. June Stark Casey. 15 (Whereupon, no response was had.) 16 THE CHAIR: Isn't with us. Ms. Casey 17 is not with us. Is Mrs. Lois Camp here? 18 Thank you, Mrs. Camp. Welcome to the 19 Committee. 20 PRESENTATION BY LOIS CAMP: 21 MS. CAMP: Thank you. My name is Lois 22 Camp. I'm a Hanford downwinder, and I'm chairman of 23 the Hanford Downwinder Health Concerns Group. 24 I, rather than to take up valuable time 25 and discuss personal health effects which have been 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 321 1 well covered by some of the people earlier 2 testifying, I think I'll say it that my own family 3 and many of the people still living downwind 4 experience all the, all the above, and one that 5 hasn't been mentioned, I think, that is very common 6 within that population that is still living downwind 7 are major organ donor rates. 8 In other words, within a time period I 9 was diagnosed with idiopathic cardiomyopathy and 10 immediately placed on a heart transplant evaluation 11 list, and my sister was diagnosed with Kidney 12 failure, has one complete kidney gone and 45-percent 13 capacity in the other kidney. If, I believe this is 14 indicative of, of people that are continuing to be 15 exposed to the radionuclides. 16 In my more formal presentation I will 17 share information from specific government and 18 private contractor reports, which include the use of 19 tracers. I, I displayed this to the Committee 20 earlier. This, this document is where I;m, the 21 abstracts, abstracts, excuse me, from the tracer 22 information. 23 I will also share some personal stories 24 from children that were taken from school. They were 25 subject of experiments during their school year. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 322 1 And then I will further explain why I 2 believe the autopsy reports and other health studies 3 should be considered at this time as valuable 4 resources for better understanding the, the 5 ramification of what we call "expected health 6 threats." 7 I, I think I'll also add just a couple 8 of stories that weren't in my, my presentation, but I 9 think it, it makes it timely to understand that a lot 10 of the fear associated with the activists or people 11 that share their health stories and the risks are 12 still very, very much a live and well, if you will. 13 This isn't a story of just what happened years ago. 14 One example, two years ago a fellow 15 realized that he was a Hanford downwinder and willed 16 that his organs be analyzed. And they came to us and 17 asked where we might suggest. 18 And we, we thought it might be best to 19 go out of the country to complete independent 20 lab. His heart and I don't know what other, what 21 other body parts were sent to a lab in Canada. 22 And much to our horror, even this 23 recently, all of his samples disappeared. There is 24 no record and there's, the scientist that was in 25 charge of this is just horrified because there's no 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 323 1 tracking of what happened. 2 I think it shows that, that even today 3 there are risks involved in trying to, to bring the 4 story of, of living cell evidence of radiation 5 illnesses. 6 Oh, another report that I didn't have 7 in my formal presentation is a report Number, a 1962 8 report, 20905. And it deals with a study that was 9 done of radioactivity in foods. 10 It, I'll read that part. In injection 11 of radioactivity in food was measured by sampling the 12 die in a number of institutions, and of persons under 13 the age of one in various geographic regions. This 14 is just the abstract, and, and I guess I'm hoping 15 that the Committee will take the responsibility of 16 following up on this. I don't have the resources to 17 do that. 18 THE CHAIR: We will. That's something 19 that we certainly can do. 20 MS. CAMP: Yeah, I certainly appreciate 21 that. 22 And then on to my concern about the 23 tracers, I have just two documents that I've chosen 24 to list that are typical of the tracers, mention of 25 the tracers in their documents. One is a 1959 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 324 1 document, HW46333, where there were tracers in both 2 the horizontal and vertical airborne plume. 3 And in a 1956 document, Number 7278 for 4 Chromium-51, which is in the river effluent. As I 5 mentioned, the bibliography of these documents are, 6 are in this that I supplied earlier. 7 Protective measures were never taken or 8 never provided to the population during these 9 intentional releases, nor were they even informed 10 about them. This confirmed to me that they were 11 indeed planned, intentional releases, and exposed an 12 unsuspecting public. 13 We were not, of course, exposed through 14 intravenous or any planned, formal, clinical setting. 15 But my inhalation, injection, skin contract, and skin 16 absorption, the affect population became subjects 17 of human experiments. 18 The second portion of my presentation 19 deals with personal recollections of students being 20 studied and experimented on. They fall into two 21 general categories: students were given doses of 22 some type of portion and then have routine body 23 counts; the other portion of our students were 24 selected from their classrooms and just received the 25 typical body count or examination. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 325 1 These occurred at various locations. I 2 only have one person that's been willing to step up 3 and report this publicly. 4 There has been a great deal of 5 harassment to the people that have talked to us, and 6 there's a lot of fear. But I do have a list of the 7 schools where, where the most recent reports have 8 been provided to me. 9 One of them is Edison School in 10 Pullman, Washington. Pullman is the home of 11 Washington State University, by the way. 12 In on incident a women, well, I, I, 13 her children, but the woman was carrying the child in 14 utero. She received liquid iodine while pregnant. 15 Then the child born from that pregnancy was given 16 examination every year through the high school year. 17 Another report from the same school, 18 Edison, young girls were selected from their 19 classroom and provided thyroid tablets. 20 Another school, the Edward Markham 21 School, a rural school near Ringold, which is on the 22 northern shore near the Columbia River, across from 23 the N Reactor, and this is part of the Pasco School 24 District, here students were given routine body 25 counters, body counter exams. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 326 1 Students attending the Quincy High 2 School, which is north of the facility, I think, by 3 about eight or nine miles, were taken to the Larson 4 Air Force Base on Moses Lake for their body counter 5 exams. 6 And another school that wouldn't be 7 directly related to Hanford, but I believe that 8 would be a tie-in with the airborne contamination 9 from the test sites, a private Catholic school in the 10 Midwest, provided routine thyroid tables to the 11 students. 12 These reports raise many questions. 13 Number one, what agencies conducted the experiments? 14 Why were the children used while others were ignored? 15 Were, there, were they given stable 16 iodine as protection possibly as par of the, of a, 17 of a controlled study? Were some provided while 18 actually others were not? 19 Were autopsies and working health exams 20 of the workers population compared or synchronized 21 with the student experiments? And, and by that I 22 mean also the, for instance, if they, a tracer was 23 sent out, would, would the studies of the children be 24 synchronized to analyze the health effects for their, 25 for their level of contamination? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 327 1 Were projects such as the AEC Sunshine 2 Project, which studied the biological effects of 3 strontium-90 considered in the experiments on the 4 children? 5 And one of the questions that bothers 6 me most I think is why is radiation-related 7 information still classified with even parties such 8 as the Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency? I think that 9 all of this must be declassified, and by that I mean 10 even the autopsy reports; of course, always keeping 11 in mind that confidentiality would always be 12 guaranteed. 13 But that information is so important to 14 the present-day medical understanding of what 15 radiation test are all about. And I believe it is 16 something that this committee must further ask, and, 17 and perhaps with, with pressure from the Committee 18 this, this information will be available to your 19 medical community. 20 I'm also concerned that the Committee 21 should be expanded to include representatives of the 22 affect groups itself. You're all a distinguished 23 group, and, and I'm personally grateful, and I know 24 all of the downwinders that I've talked to are 25 equally, that there is a committee that listens to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 328 1 us, because this is something that we've known about 2 for years. But it still raises a question of 3 credibility when the people who are affected are not 4 involved also in this committee process. 5 Just to review, and in conclusion, 6 there is confirmation of potential releases. Routine 7 examination of children were provided. 8 There is pertinent data still 9 classified, and still you hear of reports of data 10 being destroyed. They all raise great questions 11 regarding radiation experiments at Hanford. 12 Again I'll repeat, I hope the Committee 13 will gain access to all the pertinent data, including 14 the work health records. I think also expenses 15 should be paid for representatives of the affected 16 populations to attend these committee meetings. 17 These persons could serve as alternates 18 for the people that would be chosen to serve on the 19 official committee. 20 That I think's all I have. 21 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms. 22 Camp. We're learning an awful lot, and we appreciate 23 the time. 24 Do we have questions? Nancy? 25 DR. OEILNICK: I very much appreciate 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 329 1 your, all your testimony. I wonder if I could just 2 follow a little bit. 3 You mentioned that you had personal 4 recollection of these students, and you were taking 5 their testimony in some fashion. 6 MS. CAMP: Uh-huh. 7 DR. OEILNICK: I just wonder, do, do 8 they recall being told anything about why these 9 studies were being done, or do their parents recall? 10 Do any people that you've talked to have any memory 11 of being told why? 12 MS. CAMP: No. No. They were just 13 selected from the classroom. 14 Well, the lady that's following me will 15 be able to answer that far better, because she is one 16 that has been courageous and has come forward. Most 17 of the children were not aware, and as far as their 18 parents, they were not, either. 19 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. 20 Oh, you also, Lois. 21 MS. NORRIS: You mentioned harassment. 22 From whom was the harassment coming? Do you have a 23 sense for that? 24 MS. CAMP: Well, I have my personal 25 suspicions, but no. In fact, it's, it's often so, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 330 1 it, it's so random, or what's, I can't even think or 2 a good word for it. 3 It, you know, they don't leave any 4 markers who it's from. Some of the threats are very, 5 as Darcy will explain, are very explicit, with notes. 6 But a lot of it is people who take care 7 of their vehicles and suddenly have three or four 8 flat tires in a few weeks; or animals becoming 9 suspiciously sick. And it could go on and on. But 10 no, it's, we don't have any idea. 11 MS. NORRIS: I didn't want to put you 12 in any bad position. 13 THE CHAIR: Ms. Camp, bear with us for 14 one last question. 15 DR. RUSSELL: I'm concerned about the 16 lack of systematic acquisition of data by the 17 downwinders' group. Are you aware of, on a community 18 basis, epidemiologic studies, either by DOE or by any 19 others that aggregate the data, and on a community 20 basis? 21 MS. CAMP: I'm aware of the, of the 22 studies that, of the one that's just been completed. 23 And there's one ongoing. 24 But they only deal with Iodine-131 and 25 thyroid, and of course, as Trisha mentioned, there 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 331 1 were numerous other radionuclides that it has 2 clinical knowledge of. 3 DR. RUSSELL: Who sponsored those 4 ongoing studies? 5 MS. CAMP: They were paid for by the 6 DOE, but they were under private contract through, 7 let's see, oh, dea, Battelle. Battelle was involved 8 with, with one of the, the first study, and I think 9 that was -- 10 DR. THOMAS: The Hanford thyroid team 11 study, which is the one you were referring to, is now 12 being sponsored by CDC and under contract to the 13 University of Washington. 14 DR. RUSSELL: But that's just thyroid 15 disease. 16 THE CHAIR: Right. 17 DR. THOMAS: Just thyroid; nothing 18 beyond that. 19 THE CHAIR: Mrs. Camp, that you very 20 much. We appreciate it very much. 21 Is Darcy Thrall here? 22 Thank you, Ms. Thrall. Thank you for 23 coming. 24 PRESENTATION BY DARCY THRALL: 25 MS. THRALL: Good morning. As you 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 332 1 know, I'm Darcy Thrall. I was born in the tri-city 2 area near Hartford. 3 I was born in 1954 and grew up about 4 five miles from the reservation. I went to school in 5 Richland throughout my whole education through, I 6 graduated at Richland High School. 7 There's a, there's a lot of medical 8 problems in my family, from lupus to heart failure, 9 kidney failure, leukemia. I myself have numerous 10 medical problems, tumors in my stomach, terrible 11 hormonal imbalances. 12 I've had lymph glands removed. When I 13 was 11 they thought it was an appendicitis and it 14 turned out it was infected lymph glads. 15 I was never given any other information 16 what was found out, other than, "Congratulations. 17 You do not have cancer." And I was so glad to find 18 that out that I didn't push it. 19 My father went to work at the 20 construction at Hanford in 1945 and worked there most 21 of his life until he was forced to take an early 22 retirement in 1972 due to health problems. He had 23 stomach problems and was, it had to have an upper and 24 lower GI done. 25 He also had a very bad heart and had 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 333 1 several minor heart attacks that the he had never been 2 hospitalized for. He was just treated. 3 And when he was in the hospital to have 4 his upper and lower GI, before they could X-ray him 5 he had a heart attack and within nine hours had 6 passed away at the hospital, so the X-rays were never 7 done. 8 And being a Native American, his, his 9 wish was to go back to his mother earth a while man, 10 and my mother carried out those wishes and did not 11 have an autopsy performed. So consequently we don't 12 know what all was wrong with him. He did have open 13 sores on his neck and his shoulders. 14 What happened to me in second grade in 15 Spaulding Elementary School in Richland, Washington, 16 was one day a man came into the room and my name was 17 called and I was asked to go with this gentleman. 18 And I went down the hallway into a small, it was a 19 little band room and in the room there was a little 20 table similar to this set up. 21 There was some little bottles and some 22 cups. The bottles contained a white liquid. 23 It was poured into the bump and I was 24 instructed to drink this. I don't remember any 25 taste. I was seven years old. I don't remember it 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 334 1 tasting real bad, nothing. 2 But I drank the liquid. I went and sat 3 in the chair. And there was a very few of the 4 children, I don't know if it was six or eight or ten, 5 but it was very few. 6 And then I was taken along out to a van 7 that was pulled up by the playground area of the 8 school, and inside the van was a, what appeared to be 9 a doctor and nurse, people all in white uniform. And 10 I was instructed to lay (sic) down on a table on my 11 back. 12 And there was a big tube, a big white 13 tube that had a lot of little holes in it. And I was 14 sent through the tube I believe, rather than the tub 15 being passed over me. I think I went through the 16 tube and back. 17 And it made a lot of noise, a lot of 18 static. And the assistance was writing down things. 19 And then I was given a little calendar. 20 or a logbook; instructed to take that home to my 21 parents and have them fill out everything I ate and 22 everything I drank for, I'm going to say a week or 23 two weeks, maybe ten days, and then it was to be 24 brought back at a specific date to the school. 25 And it was to say if the food that I 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 335 1 drank or ate came from our garden or our cattle. We 2 lived almost completely off the land, hunted and 3 fished, raised our own cattle and had our own milk, 4 raised our own garden. So we had very little that 5 was purchased from the store other than general 6 staples. 7 I, my mother filled that out. That was 8 her first knowledge of this. 9 There was no parental consent prior to 10 this happening, but she did fill it out as 11 instructed, just like everybody did back in those 12 days. You did exactly as you were told; and sent it 13 back to the school at the appropriate dates, where 14 the same van came to the school and parked in the 15 same area. 16 And I was taken back to the van and 17 sent through again. The second time I do not 18 remember drinking anything, but I was sent back 19 through there. 20 And at that time, or near that time I 21 was given this little dog tag and told to keep it on 22 my body at all times. And I did it. 23 I kept it on my body throughout sixth 24 grade, when I tossed it in a box somewhere and later 25 ran across it years and years later as an adult and 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 336 1 put it on my key chain and began wondering what this, 2 what it means, other than it has my name on it, my 3 father's name on it, our address. And then on the 4 left-hand corner it says, "R [dash] P,~ and on the 5 right-hand corner it says "S." 6 I don't know what that stands for. I 7 would like to find out that. 8 I would like to find out why I was chosen 9 in my classroom; why I, why I was chosen to 10 drink this liquid; what was contained in that liquid. 11 And I would like to be able to know the results of 12 this testing, why it was done and what the results 13 were, what was found-out. 14 When I went public with this last 15 January I had, I had a lot of threatening phone 16 calls. I had, I have a little farm that is, it's not 17 a productive farm. It's just pets, my own pets. 18 And I had a great, huge, old, old 19 turkey. And one morning I woke up and when the sun 20 came up I could see steam rising in the pasture. And 21 I went out there and found my turkey, and he had been 22 stabbed over and over again so far I could put my 23 hand this deep into his chest. He was still alive. 24 I would assume it would take two people 25 to hold him down and keep him quiet for me not to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 337 1 hear what was done right outside my house. And he 2 had to be destroyed. 3 I had threats, threatening phone calls. 4 I had my life threatened over the phone. 5 I was told to shut up and to be quiet 6 about things. I had notes put in my mail box. I had 7 what appeared to be blood and guts poured all over my 8 mailbox. Turned out it was something else, but it 9 looked, it scared me. I thought I was going to find 10 another one of my animals in that mailbox. 11 I was worried about my daughter at all 12 times. I still am. I hope nothing like that happens 13 now, because here I am now. 14 But it did make me wonder why, why 15 people got so upset with me telling this if it's 16 not -- It's something that happened. I don't know 17 any, any big secrets or anything. I just want to 18 know, I want to know some answers now, and I think 19 that I deserve to know that. 20 And that's what I'm doing here today, 21 hoping you can find some answers 22 THE CHAIR: Well, Mrs. Thrall, thank 23 you for coming to share this information. And it 24 goes without saying we really do appreciate that. We 25 have some questions. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 338 1 Reed, and Ruth. 2 DR. TUCKSON: I'm overwhelmed by this 3 last statement that you made about the intimidation 4 and people threatening you. That's, it's hard to 5 understand. 6 MS. THRALL: It's very hard for me to 7 understand. 8 DR. TUCKSON: I think you've told 9 us everything you know about that, but I just can't 10 leave you hang there without asking you some more 11 about that. First of all, when did this happen? 12 MS. THRALL: It was last January. 13 DR. TUCKSON: January of this year? 14 MS. THRALL: Uh-huh. 15 DR. TUCKSON: It was that recent? 16 MS. THRALL: January sixth of 1994 that 17 I was on the front page of the Herald, and all the 18 news stations, because I'd gone to a downwinder's 19 meeting hoping, hoping to hear other people asking 20 these question that I had, and nobody had asked 21 until the meeting was almost over and I had said, "I 22 would like to know if anybody else knows about this." 23 And one other person spoke up 24 and remembered the same thing happening to her. And 25 never heard another word about her from her. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 339 1 Earlier another women had testified 2 that when she went public she was flooded with phone 3 calls from people that had the same thing that 4 happened to them, and I was flooded with phone calls 5 to shut up and mind my own business. 6 DR. TUCKSON: Was there anything about 7 -- this is, these are the civic, public relations 8 officials of the town. 9 MS. THRALL: Nobody had enough courage 10 to let me know who they were, and nobody identified 11 themselves. I did go to the police with it. 12 I had, I've sent everything documented. 13 The police have everything. Everything. They still 14 have. 15 I never heard back from them. I've 16 never heard anything. Nobody has stepped forward 17 with any information about what happened in the 18 school or what happened to me. 19 DR. TUCKSON: Real quick, and then -- 20 the dog tags that you wore, was that common to any 21 other children? 22 MS. THRALL: I, I believe that there 23 were a few other children that had dog tags, although 24 there weren't a lot of children. I have a sister 25 that was two grades ahead of me in school 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 240 1 They said she didn't have a dog tag. 2 She said she thought she had one, but then she said, 3 "No. I remember you having one." 4 DR. TUCKSON: So it was not a common 5 thing? 6 MS. THRALL: Not that I recall. I was 7 seven years old. Nobody cared about these things. 8 DR. TUCKSON: And absolutely no one 9 came to you? Your parents were not consulted before 10 you drank, and whatever the procedure was in the van? 11 They filled out the logbook with you but no, they 12 never contacted you? 13 MS. THRALL: No, no contract. No 14 consents. 15 DR. TUCKSON: Your pediatrician, 16 the, -- 17 MS. THRALL: No. 18 DR. TUCKSON: -- was never contacted? 19 MS. THRALL: Never contacted. To this 20 day now my mother wonders and worries and feels 21 guilty. 22 Back then she was just doing what she 23 was told, just like everybody did. And now she's 24 like overwhelmed by it and she'd like to know, too. 25 She's also ill, along with my seven 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 341 1 brothers and sisters all have, all have a lot of 2 major medical problems. And my mother has problems 3 from her colon and her intestines every year. 4 And now they're looking at removing 5 about a foot and a-half of her lower intestine, but 6 now they don't know if she's going to survive the 7 surgery. So they're trying to decide that. 8 DR. TUCKSON: Ruth, I just hope if 9 there's any reasonable way to find out from any of 10 the other Hanford folk who have testified whether 11 this, the, the intimidation has occurred, especially 12 since we find this is from January and this is 13 current history. 14 THE CHAIR: Yeah. I'm looking and I'm 15 seeing some nods in the audience. We need to know 16 especially it's affecting our ability to do the work. 17 MS. THRALL: Yeah. I'm concerned now. 18 I have a daughter at home and I'm not there to be 19 with her. She is with somebody else, but I'm going 20 to be worried tonight until I have my arms around 21 her. 22 THE CHAIR: And we can all understand 23 that. And again, we just admire you for taking the 24 courage. 25 MS. THRALL: Well, I believe it needs 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 342 1 to be done, and I believe it very strongly. Maybe to 2 suffer the loss of another animal, as much as I'd 3 hate to lose my 30-year-old horse or something, but 4 somebody needs to come forward and do this. 5 THE CHAIR: Ruth. 6 DR. MACKLIN: Yes, one of the four, one 7 of the, the questions you said you want to find out 8 is you want to find out mainly why were you chosen 9 among the children to be wearing the dog tags. What 10 is, do you have any memory of other children who were 11 taken from the classroom or told to drink this 12 liquid, whether they went into this van? 13 Do you have any recollection of who, 14 and I don't mean necessarily by name, but for example 15 were they children who lived in families who also 16 lived off the land? Was there anything in common 17 that you knew who the other children were? 18 Did they talk to one another about it? 19 I mean, seven-year-olds can talk and exchange, for 20 example. And I just wonder if your recollection, do 21 you have any memories of, again, not by name, but by 22 what they have in common with you? 23 MS. THRALL: Well, one, one thing I've 24 wondered about is that my father was, had taken 25 overdoses of radiation while working in the, the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 343 1 area, because he had come home and scrubbed quite a 2 while. And I wonder, at that time I didn't even know 3 what he did or, or why he came home sore and raw, and 4 I'm not sure. 5 I don't know by name or recollection 6 any of the other children that had that done. I 7 think there was a, a neighbor of mine that had that 8 done to her, too. 9 I'm almost certain I can remember 10 walking to Brownie's in second grade and talking to 11 her about that. but she was, she was murdered in 12 1973, so I couldn't find out any more. 13 DR. MACKLIN: Did you remember just 14 when that, those dog tags were issued in the course 15 of these things? You were brought out of the 16 classroom, given this stuff to drink. When did you 17 get those dog tags? 18 MS. THRALL: I'm not exactly sure. I 19 think it all happened about the same time, because it 20 was, everything was all at once and nothing ever 21 again. And I just, I didn't care. 22 All I cared about was going home and 23 riding the horses. And later on, having all the 24 medical problems I have, I have a daughter now that 25 there's, you know, there's lupus and heart problems, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 344 1 and my daughter gets strange rashes and has tested 2 positive for an indicate that you must have in your 3 body to get lupus. 4 And so I'm very concerned. And I have 5 a lot of things I want to do in my life, and I want 6 to know if I'm, what kind of life am I going to have. 7 I have fibromyalgia, which is a very 8 divesting disease. You can look fine but you're 9 terribly fatigued. 10 And I have a terrible hormone 11 imbalance. And I'd like to know, do I have five 12 years, or do I have 35 years? Because I have a lot 13 of things left in my life to do, and I want to watch 14 my daughter grow up and be a healthy woman. 15 THE CHAIR: Mary Ann, do you have a 16 question? 17 DR. STEVENSON: I have a question. 18 Getting back to the dog tags, when they gave them to 19 you I think you said you were told to hold onto them, 20 carry them, something like that. 21 MS. THRALL: We wore them on a chain 22 around my neck. The chain had broken on mine. 23 DR. STEVENSON: Right. The 24 instructions were to wear these. Were you told to 25 show them to anybody? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 345 1 MS. THRALL: We had to keep them on at 2 all times. 3 DR. STEVENSON: Were there any other 4 instructions? 5 MS. THRALL: Well, I'm wondering if it 6 had to do -- we used to have the bomb drills at 7 random every so often. The alarm would go off and we 8 would go cover up and cover our heads, and after we 9 were already out there they would tell us it was a 10 test, after we were already out there. 11 It was very scary as a child. I used 12 to have dreams of airplanes and bombs. 13 And I don't know if it had something to 14 do with that, but a lot of people didn't have the 15 tags. I knew a lot of people that I went to school 16 with that felt gypped because they never got a dog 17 tag and they didn't get to go out to the van and see 18 what was in it. 19 DR. STEVENSON: But the dog tag came 20 from after you came out of the van? 21 MS. THRALL: I believe it was after we 22 came. And I'd like to find out what the bottom 23 letters mean. I'd like to find out. 24 DR. STEVENSON: Was there ever a 25 discussion that they would be coming back to look at 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 345 1 it or something? 2 MS. THRALL: The only specific 3 recollection I have it when I brought back the log 4 that my parents filled out, that they would see me at 5 that time. And I did have that, and it was -- 6 THE CHAIR: Henry. 7 DR. ROYAL: When did you discover the 8 dog tag? And whom have you asked about it? And what 9 sort of answer have you got? 10 MS. THRALL: When did I discover it? 11 DR. ROYAL: Yes. You mentioned that 12 you had put it away in a box, and when did you 13 discover it? 14 MS. THRALL: Uh-huh. I have, a couple 15 of weeks after I got out of high school I went to 16 Alaska for hunting and fishing for two weeks and 17 stayed for ten years. And everything was left at my 18 parents' house. 19 And I think it was at the time my 20 father died in 1989. When I was home for his funeral 21 and went back to Alaska I grabbed some more of my 22 boxes and packed them u and sent them on to Alaska, 23 and then left Alaska in 1993 and went to Jackson 24 Hole, Wyoming. 25 And at that time is when I first pulled 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 347 1 this out again. And it was in an old, old jewelry 2 box that one of my older brothers had sent me from 3 Japan, and it was down in, stuck beside my music box 4 in there, in there. 5 And I pulled it out and thought, "Oh, I 6 remember it. I haven't seen this for years and 7 years." 8 And I put it on my key chain at that 9 time and I've always kept it on my key chain since 10 then. 11 Dr. ROYAL: But what I'm saying is, 12 someone at the Hanford site would know about these 13 dog tags. 14 MS. THRALL: I would think so. 15 DR. ROYAL: What's the effort you've 16 made to try to get an answer from them to try to find 17 out? 18 MS. THRALL: Well, the effort that I 19 made was when I went public in January and had asked 20 about it and there were no answers, and I was 21 harassed. And I did kind of back away and not pursue 22 it other than to go to the School District and ask 23 for school records, which they have no school records 24 of it. 25 DR. ROYAL: There's no ombudsman, be it 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 348 1 now, where you can go to some lay person, member of 2 the public and the DOE, and say, "what's the 3 significance of this dog tag?" 4 I mean, there's no one there who might 5 know that for you? 6 MS. THRALL: I don't know. I haven't 7 reached that direction. I don't know if there is 8 anyone. Or possibly I don't want to threaten my 9 family. 10 I would like, I'd like to be told where 11 to go to find this information out other than the, 12 going through the public schools to try to get 13 records of, of second grade and records of, showing 14 my attendance, which show how much illness I had as a 15 child, and still have now. 16 I've been through pain clinics and was 17 told that this is how I'm going to live. I would 18 like to find out as soon as I can. 19 I just don't know how to go about it 20 yet, but i"m going to find out. I'm willing to 21 peruse it now. 22 THE CHAIR: Dan. 23 MR. GUTTMAN: Yeah. Just, my little brother 24 is a lawyer for some of the workers out 25 there, and of course the work experiences, they're 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 349 1 talking about this school experiment. And I 2 understand there's good information out there now 3 that DOE has said that there are quite a few boxes 4 related to school testing. 5 Do you know any Hanford groups? Have 6 you done the Freedom of Information route with DOE, 7 and is there anything that -- 8 MS. THRALL: No, I don't know about it. 9 THE CHAIR: Well, we'll try and settle 10 that for you. 11 MS. THRALL: Okay. I appreciate it. 12 THE CHAIR: Sure. Thank you again. We 13 thank you very much. We hope you come home and find 14 your daughter and all the animals -- 15 MS. THRALL: Yes, thank you. 16 THE CHAIR: Thank you so much. 17 Is Ms. Stephanie Fraser, Fraser in the 18 audience? 19 (Whereupon, no response was had.) 20 THE CHAIR: Dr. Bernard Lo here? 21 Hi, Dr. Lo. 22 PRESENTATION BY BERNARD LO: 23 DR. LO: Good afternoon. My name's 24 Bernard Lo. I'm Professor of Medicine at the 25 University of California, San Francisco, and I'm 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 350 1 actually here in two quite different roles. I'm 2 going to try to distinguish them. 3 My first role is a member of the UCSF 4 Ad Hoc Advisory Committee on Human Radioactive 5 Experiments. I was appointed, I was appointed to 6 investigate charges that patients at our hospital 7 were involved in human radiation experiments. 8 And wearing that hat I really only want 9 to say that both the community and institution take 10 these charges very seriously; that it's shocking and 11 of great concern to us that the, it might have 12 occurred; and so we are in the middle of our own 13 internal investigation. We're still gathering and 14 deliberating. 15 Our own internal investigation says 16 that we're not able at this time to provide any 17 conclusions. We do want to tell you that when we do 18 have a final report, our Chancellor is on record as 19 saying this will be made public and made available to 20 you. 21 We look forward to the day when we can 22 finish part of our deliberations and have a 23 preliminary report. And we want to definitely share 24 that with you. 25 But I actually wanted to sort of take 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 351 1 off that sort of official hat and spend the rest of 2 my allotted time talking to you as someone who 3 directs the program, and that is like some of you who 4 have spend a great deal of professional time 5 struggling with issues such as informed consent. 6 And what I have to share with you is 7 not as dramatic and moving as some of the human 8 studies you've heard, but I want to share with you 9 some of the difficulties I've found in trying to look 10 back 50 years ago. 11 Clearly in 1994 it would be completely 12 unethical for any person, any research person to 13 inject a person with even tiny amounts of irradiation 14 without their informed and voluntary consent, and the 15 researcher would have the burden of proving that he 16 or she had that consent. 17 Going back 50 years, I've found it a 18 little more difficult to judge the experiments that 19 we've been asked to set up. For one thing, we lack 20 crucial information finding what the protocols were. 21 We have been unable to find what these 22 experiments combined. We don't know what, if 23 anything, patients were told about the experiment 24 before the experiment was done. 25 So what I'd like to do with you is talk 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 352 1 a little bit about the, the difficulties I've 2 experienced trying to, to make these reports and 3 production. I suspect that some of this will be 4 germane to some of you. 5 I have three sort of points I wanted to 6 try to put in front of you. One is that from the 7 historical record and the published literature my 8 conclusion is that informed consent really just did 9 not occur with any regularity during the period, say, 10 before 1947, where our group has had this brought to 11 our attention. 12 However, and this is our second point, 13 I'd be willing to argue quite strongly that certainly 14 by the end of 1946, the, the guideline, the principle 15 that informed consent should be obtained from each 16 subject was clearly established. 17 And I know that there's some people 18 that may disagree with that, but I think it's, a fair 19 reading of historical record is that the discussions 20 that took place after the disclosure of the, the Nazi 21 atrocities committed in research were not new 22 standards that were not in existence. They were a 23 compilation of standards that were felt to be in 24 existence and were meant to apply to war time 25 research in the U.S. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 253 1 Furthermore, I think that the medical 2 literature, particularly the Journal of the American 3 Medical Association, ran several article in late 4 1946 on this topic. And I think it would be fair to 5 say that a scientist doing the test would have been, 6 realized that this was the ethical standard to be 7 applied. 8 Having said that, however, and once you 9 get beyond the general idea that, for example, the, 10 in the words of a 1946 editorial, that the, during 11 the U.S. research in World War II, said that, quote, 12 "Provided the human being could determine whether or 13 not to participate was recognized," once I get beyond 14 that, I think there were very few operational 15 documents as to how much people need to be told. 16 And there are two issues that have been 17 troubling as people have, have raised them which I'd 18 just like to, to share with you. The first is really 19 the question of how much disclosure is necessary. 20 And as you know, the issue of what's 21 standard for disclosure as a reasonable physician/ 22 reasonable patient standard was not discussed until 23 well into the '50s and '60s. And one can argue, and 24 it has been argued to me, although I don't accept 25 this, that researchers who did only what researchers 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 254 1 were doing at the time should be exonerated because 2 they were expounding this same practice. 3 I don't accept that argument, but it, 4 it's an argument that has been expounded. But as you 5 know, there were not clear standards, and that was an 6 argument that was there. 7 Another crucial issue is who, who bears 8 the burden of proof? That, most of the records I've 9 looked at there is no nice informed consent form 10 considering what the patient was told by the 11 researcher. 12 In the absence of such documentation, 13 do we assume that disclosure didn't take place? Or 14 are we just unable to prove that disclosure didn't 15 take place? 16 Clearly it serves more to protect the 17 patients if we assume the research bears 18 responsibility to document what was said and what 19 wasn't said. But again, I think that's a standard 20 that comes much later that created, that I've been 21 trying to investigate. 22 It's clearly difficult to judge some of 23 these occasions. There are, however, experiments 24 that can be viewed even in hindsight, in retrospect 25 as just being plain wrong and unethical based on 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 355 1 timeless and universal standards, and I would suggest 2 that these three would come to mind. I'm sure you 3 thought of other classifications. 4 One is where if there were an 5 experiment where researchers intentionally inflicted 6 harm on research subjects with no prospect of 7 benefits, that's wrong in sort of any time or of any 8 era or any type of research. 9 The second group of experiments would 10 be where the researcher made absolutely no attempt to 11 obtain the informed consent of subjects. 12 And the third is if the researcher 13 misrepresented the experiments to the potential 14 subjects as a way of sort of inducing their consent. 15 You know, in some of the other 16 protocols and experiments, experiments that I've 17 tried to look at, things are not quite so clear-cut 18 and it's actually been a little difficult trying to 19 arrive at moral judgments, trying to -- 20 I know that your committee is going to 21 be struggling with similar such difficult cases. I'm 22 sure you share my feeling that this is, even though 23 it's a difficult test, it's terribly important. 24 I'm sure we've heard that the outcome 25 of this deliberation will have a tremendous impact on 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 356 1 the well being of Americans, and that's just a general 2 area of the research. And so I would, like other 3 citizens, look forward to, to look forward and to, to 4 talk with you about these parameters. Thank you. 5 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Dr. 6 Lo. We appreciate your coming. 7 Ruth. 8 DR. MACKLIN: Obviously your remarks 9 and your written statements are, are at the heart of 10 what the Committee will be doing in the next few 11 months. 12 I have, and I apologize to everyone 13 here for what is one may question, which is going to 14 sound very theoretical, but I don't mean it to be 15 theoretical. We have to make certain these good 16 intentions of the sort that you've just described in 17 your written statement -- 18 I notice, I've just underlined several 19 words and I think we're going to have to grapple with 20 the, what these words mean and how we should look at 21 them. You use the phrase when you refer to the 22 committee, "present-day ethical standards." 23 All right, "standards" there can mean 24 "ideal." It can mean "regulations." It can mean 25 "policies in, in the institutions." 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 357 1 DR. LO: Absolutely. 2 DR. MACKLIN: Then in the next 3 paragraph you use the phrase, "In 1947, that while 4 the concept of informed consent for research was well 5 established, there were no specific operational 6 standards." 7 Now, "operations standards" make it a 8 little clear that what you mean here is a standard 9 that's meant to be put into operation. 10 And then this next paragraph you refer 11 to "standard practice," where the word "standard" 12 appears but it means something very different, of 13 course. It means it was a normal practice or typical 14 practice. 15 Then you refer further to "ethical 16 guidelines," which we know what guidelines are. And 17 then at some later point you refer to this as 18 "ethical guidelines" and "informed consents," and 19 then later, "ethical principles." 20 Well, you might be able to help the 21 Committee in this continued work by, to use again a 22 kind of technical term, by your impacting these 23 consents. Every single one of them is important, and 24 if we're going to be making it we have to make some 25 judgments, and retrospective judgments. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 358 1 It's important to differentiate between 2 what was a (sic) operational standard and what were 3 ethical standards in the sense of known ideals not 4 yet put into practice. 5 DR. LO: I think you're obviously 6 correct in what you, you just said. These are 7 helping to draw some very crucial distinctions. 8 I can, you know, we're trying to sort 9 out the differences between what people actually did, 10 what people at the time could have said, or should, 11 ought to have been done; and then more specific 12 requirements for what researchers actually had to do. 13 And it's been very difficult to sort out. 14 I think clearly the general idea that 15 you should get the voluntary and informed consent, 16 voluntary consent from patients after they were told 17 they entered the experiment is clear. And I would 18 say that's a responsibility that ethically 19 researchers at the time should be held responsible 20 for. 21 I tried to ask the next level of how 22 much do you have to say? How do you have to document 23 it? What level of detail do you need to talk to 24 people about the risks? That seems to me is the more 25 slippery to get a hold on. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 359 1 I've tried to look, and I'm sure you 2 have, for specific regulations either from the 3 institution or from the agency, in our specific case 4 it would be Atomic Energy Commission after January, 5 1947, where they actually said, "What we're required, 6 you must do steps 1, 2, 3." 7 Even where we've found some documents 8 or evidence that those kinds of regulations are in 9 place, we still run into questions of, well, were 10 they publicized? Did researchers know about them? 11 Did they apply to this experiment, or is this 12 experiment being considered as some of category 13 that's somehow exempted? 14 But I think you're absolutely correct. 15 It's really important to eke out. 16 And I must say, many of the people that 17 we've talked to locally have a hard time 18 understanding that there should be something down. 19 So again, across the country we're looking for you to 20 help us understand what is necessary. 21 THE CHAIR: I have Reed and then Phil. 22 DR. TUCKSON: Yeah, you're analyzing a 23 difficult, there's a cliff there, as you described 24 the things that were clearly the wrong. Do you have 25 in your mind now some examples that cause you angst 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 360 1 and agony that are not so clear? 2 I mean, can you, are I prepared today 3 to describe or talk about some of those that, that 4 you feel that, that, that cause you this tension 5 that, that, that you're agonizing over that may not 6 be clear? 7 DR. LO: Well, I can, I think the most 8 difficult ones are the ones that were heard in the 9 other testimony where people just had no idea what 10 was going on. They weren't told. 11 They didn't know. And they're trying 12 to find out later and couldn't get an answer. 13 It seems to me that, whether or not 14 there's a government regulation saying, "This has to 15 be disclosed somewhere," personally, ethically you 16 can say, "People ought to know what is being done." 17 We feel ethical controversies. How do 18 we know these people weren't told? 19 There's some evidence that somebody 20 says he knows that the, he heard from somebody that 21 the patient was told. We have sort of a second-hand 22 report now, not the sort of specific information that 23 we're used to requiring today when you talk to a 24 patient about these types of issues. 25 DR. TUCKSON: At the University of San 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 361 1 Francisco, what is your reading of the sophistication 2 of human subjects or other scientific ethical 3 controls that existed within the institution during 4 the time period in question? 5 DR. LO: Okay. Certainly during the 6 time period from, say, 1945 to '48, which is the time 7 when these injections took place, there doesn't 8 appear to be any institutional body that takes as one 9 of its duties to talk about, to regulate, to oversee 10 in any way sort of the ethical aspects of the 11 experimentation. 12 Later on there are, there's more 13 evidence that there was concern among people in the 14 institution, "These are issues worth considering," 15 and going forward to consider them. But certainly 16 nothing resembling the oversight as, that the 17 institutions are requiring today. 18 DR. TUCKSON: My next question is, 19 simply because this is not my area of expertise, is 20 that a, and you may not know either, but was that a 21 common thing in America, you think, across the board, 22 that they were not reaching these kinds of standards 23 at this time; there were really no guidelines about 24 how to behave? 25 DR. LO: Well, I think I would be very 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 362 1 careful about the time period. I think I'd focus at 2 the time period at the end of the war and right after 3 the war. 4 Once you get into the '50s there's a 5 lot of discussion in the mainstream literature about 6 ethical issues. And in research, the, all through 7 these are conferences held at prestigious 8 institutions and subsequently written in the 9 journals, like Science, I mean, main-line journals. 10 So I think once you hit the '50's, I 11 think a good scientist reading the literature of the 12 period would have come across a very thorough 13 discussions of the ethics issue. 14 DR. TUCKSON: It would be reasonable, I 15 guess, to assume that the quality academic 16 environment, that the people in charge of that 17 environment would incorporate that literature into 18 the life of a, the academy. 19 DR. LO: Dr. Tuckson, I only, I only 20 wish I could be as confident of that. It's only one 21 of two of the crucial issues that you'll deal with in 22 the later part of the charge, because as you know, 23 we are required as part of the training of 24 investigators, to make ethics an integral part of 25 their training. And whether that works in practice 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 363 1 the way its' supposed to work, -- 2 DR. TUCKSON: Let me just -- I know 3 that Ruth is going to kill me. I have just one last 4 quick thought. You've, listen, you've been very 5 helpful. I mean, listen. You're going to help me to 6 think this through after you leave, so this is great. 7 In this notion that you have to do 8 this, or have the burden of proof, how would you help 9 me to think that the absence of, of appropriate 10 controls within the academy as being a significant 11 issue as I try to think through burden of proof if 12 there is, if it is impossible to prove, if it is 13 impossible to discover an institutional morality 14 that's codified, as opposed to some behavior, 15 therefore it cannot prove, -- 16 DR. LO: Yes. 17 DR. TUCKSON: -- the absence of which 18 makes a statement as well -- 19 DR. LO: Yes. 20 DR. TUCKSON: -- about the academy. 21 DR. LO: Well, I think you're putting 22 your finger on a very, set of very crucial issues, 23 and I think the, I want to sort of sketch out with 24 you the way the human mind runs. 25 And that's, look, these people probably 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 264 1 didn't do anything different than virtually any 2 other. They didn't, if they didn't even mention it 3 was experimental, it was just in those terms. 4 And that, and if there was no sort of 5 institutional culture that said you really should do 6 more than that, the argument is, how can you, how 7 much blaming can you put on these people for doing 8 what they did? That's not getting informed consent 9 that would resemble not just 1994 standards, but it 10 would be the 1948 standards. 11 I find that category very, very 12 troubling, and somewhat want to say it's wrong. But 13 it's very hard for me to come up with an argument to 14 say why. 15 THE CHAIR: Phil. 16 DR. RUSSELL: Along those same lines I 17 wonder if you would comment on your observations on 18 the consents and the operational aspects of, of 19 informed consents across the stage. There were a 20 variety of people doing a lot of research. 21 Physiologist use a lot of healthy 22 human volunteers in the infectious disease community, 23 and the research going on, those communities didn't 24 communicate effectively. There was no central 25 authority to be responsible for that. What did that, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 365 1 what did that -- 2 DR. LO: Yeah. 3 DR. RUSSELL: -- affect the spectrum? 4 DR. LO: Yeah. Again, that's very 5 important. 6 My only reading of the time is that 7 it's not so much of a subject division as it is a 8 division between ther-, clinical research as it's 9 meant to be therapeutic in the sense it's going to 10 have some direct benefit to the public. And also 11 that's carried out by the Army's figures. 12 There's a lot of research at the time 13 where the doctor, the patient's personal physician 14 and counsel is also doing the experiment. I think 15 there's a feeling there that because that interferes 16 with the traditional doctor/patient relationship 17 where the doctor was presumably acting for the 18 patient you didn't need this kind of detailed 19 discussion. 20 But it seems to me that a lot of the 21 starting of the experiments was where the 22 investigations were not where really the benefits of 23 that particular patient was very, very long-term, 24 problematic. And seems to me people were grappling 25 with the idea that if you could no longer assume the, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 366 1 the doctor-patient relationship to protect the 2 patient because of these new researcher/patient 3 relationships, what kinds of things are we talking 4 about? I don't think we're talking about the same 5 thing. 6 DR. RUSSELL: So long as there was an 7 impressive assumption. Where you thought where it 8 didn't exist, you need another more formal -- 9 DR. LO: Well, it certainly, from where 10 the doctor/patient relationship existed people felt 11 it was accurate protection. Outside of that 12 relationship I think it's a real controversy. 13 THE CHAIR: May I ask this as a way to 14 facilitate this? Would you give us some sense of 15 timing of the UCSF -- 16 DR. LO: No, this is just the 17 University of California/San Francisco. We were 18 constituted January of this past year. 19 Let me say, we had tremendous problems 20 just getting a hold of documents. We don't have as 21 much staff as we want. 22 There are just staff trained to search 23 through archived documents and trained to search 24 through archives, but beyond just gathering evidence, 25 the problem with that. But I think we've had 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 367 1 problems with decentralization and forming judgments 2 that, in the absence of, the presence of a lot of 3 evidence which has a lot of holes. 4 They do this and the, there is a 5 feeling we must make a decision. How we go about 6 making the decisions like this can be very 7 traumatizing. 8 THE CHAIR: Can you give us a sense of 9 the time frame as to when you think you'll have a 10 report finished? 11 DR. LO: We had hoped to have the 12 report finished. 13 THE CHAIR: Can we take it you haven't 14 yet reached a conclusion with respect to the time of 15 experiments? 16 DR. LO: That's correct. We do not. I 17 cannot before you today say I know what our ad hoc 18 committee is going to do. 19 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. We 20 appreciate it. Thank you for coming. 21 DR. LO: Thank you. We appreciate it. 22 THE CHAIR: And we hope we can work 23 together. 24 Can I see if Ms. Marylia Kelly is in 25 the audience? You are. Okay. I just want to make 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 368 1 sure. Then we have two more public comments, and the 2 next is by Mrs. Jackie Cabasso. 3 MS. CABASSO: Thank you. 4 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much for 5 joining us. 6 MS. CABASSO: Thank you. 7 PRESENTATION BY JACKIE CABASSO: 8 MS. CABASSO: My name is Jackie 9 Cabasso. I'm Executive Director of the Western 10 States Legal Foundation, a non-profit public interest 11 organization in Oakland, California, that provides 12 legal support for peace and environmental activist, 13 with an emphasis on nuclear issues. 14 Since 1982 we have participated in 15 numerous DOE hearings considering its nuclear 16 programs, and in federal rulemaking relating to 17 nuclear issues. For more than a decade we have 18 monitored closely the activities of the Lawrence 19 Livermore National Laboratory. 20 We believe that the United States 21 Government, certain of its agencies, and specific 22 individuals within those agencies bear a primary 23 moral responsibility for leading the world into the 24 nuclear age and sustaining it, and causing 25 radiation-related human suffering around the world 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 369 1 I personally have visited both 2 Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and in August of 1991, I was a 3 member of the first international civilian delegation 4 ever to tour the former Soviet nuclear test site at 5 Kazakhstan. I saw a lot of human suffering. 6 The nuclear age has been one long human 7 experiment beginning with the Trinity test conceived 8 in secret under the auspices of the Manhattan Project 9 conducted in Alamagordo, New Mexico, on July 10 sixteenth, 1945. 11 According to Richard Rhodes, in his 12 book The Making of the Atomic Bomb, some of its 13 principal designers believed that it might cause the 14 entire atmosphere to explode. One of them, Kenneth 15 Bainbridge, later wrote that Enrico Fermi suddenly 16 offered to take wagers from his fellow scientists on 17 whether or not the bomb would ignite the atmosphere, 18 and, if so, whether it would merely destroy New 19 Mexico, or whether it would destroy the world. 20 Despite this unbelievably hugh risk, 21 the scientists went ahead with the test, and the 22 experiment is still continuing. Despite the end of 23 the Cold War justification the U.S. continues to 24 spend over $20 billion a year on nuclear-related 25 programs. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 270 1 Over 65 percent goes to preparations 2 for nuclear war. That includes programs to maintain 3 or expand the U.S. nuclear arsenal, including 4 procurement or delivery of shipments such as the 5 Trident nuclear submarines, while only five percent 6 goes to the retirement of nuclear weapons. 7 Most of the remaining of that $120 8 million goes to efforts to maintain a nuclear 9 arsenal. Although the sweeping DOE plan to build a 10 nuclear weapons production complex known as Complex 11 21 appears to be a, reconfiguration of the complex 12 is apparently under way at the weapons labs. 13 Earlier this year, 1994, the director 14 of the Livermore Lab told Congress, and I quote, "We 15 are assuming stewardship of production capabilities. 16 As production plans of other plants are being closed, 17 replacement warhead options are replaced." 18 Capabilities will be designed together. 19 The Livermore Lab is a railroad base to 20 produce plutonium triggers for nuclear weapons using 21 a new die casting technique, and the Department of 22 Energy is relocating a variety of other nuclear 23 weapons production to Livermore and Los Alamos, 24 outside of any formal environmental review process 25 and well hidden from the public scrutiny. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 371 1 To her credit -- well, let's, most of 2 all we need to expand the definition of what is a 3 nuclear experiment and who the victims are. 4 To her credit, Secretary of the Energy 5 Hazel O'Leary has announced in the opening of this 6 initiative to end the Cold War the costs of Cold War 7 secrecy. And as we all know, in January she began 8 soliciting public input of how the Department should 9 begin the process of declassifying the estimated 252 10 million pages of documents at the National Archives. 11 And while we welcome this very first 12 step, it challenges us and presents us a unique 13 opportunity to widen the terms of the debate, and to 14 put the policies, past, present, and future, on the 15 table. We must demand that information released not 16 be limited to a relatively small number of past 17 incidents. 18 We must insist that the definition of 19 a, quote, unquote, "radiation victim" be greatly 20 expanded to include the estimated half a million 21 atomic veterans and uncounted downwinders, including 22 indigenous populations in the Continental United 23 States and Pacific Islands, as well as unsuspecting 24 Department of Energy workers and residents of nearby 25 communities who suffered and are still suffering as a 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 372 1 direct result of the U.S. nuclear testing in all of 2 its forms. 3 Furthermore, it is absolutely necessary 4 that data release not be limited to historical 5 records. It must include information about current 6 DOE activities and future schemes, such as 7 alternative forms of nuclear tests at the weapons 8 labs in the nuclear test sites, and new weapons 9 capabilities. 10 I'd like to just take a minute to 11 reiterate the declassification priorities that we've 12 presented to Secretary O'Leary in January because I 13 think that those are still relevant. And I will 14 submit our whole document to you. 15 THE CHAIR: Now, -- 16 MS. CABASSO: For the Record, what I 17 mean, the archived records are of great interest to 18 historians, historians, excuse me. The principal 19 drivers for immediate declassification and 20 investigation should be protection of public health 21 and safety, and protection of the environment. 22 Again, basic baseline data essential 23 for informed public participation in future U.S. 24 nuclear weapons policy decisions must be made 25 available. We urge that the most important tasks of 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 373 1 the declassification efforts should be to release 2 those records which, first of all, identify 3 stockpiles of nuclear weapons, active, inactive, and 4 dismantled, and from 1945 to the present, as well as 5 future projections. 6 Secondly, identify program-specific and 7 budgeted dollar amounts, -- and this is very 8 important. Nobody's mentioned dollar allocations 9 today. -- together with program rationales and 10 objectives. 11 Third, identify programs which have 12 had, presently have or will have significant 13 environmental impacts at the laboratories when they 14 are conducted. 15 And other military and non-military 16 research information should be provided in a form 17 which allows the public to access the environmental 18 impacts to the programs which cause them, again very 19 key and ongoing as we speak. 20 Fourth, identify and quantify sites at 21 which nuclear materials are housed, stored, or 22 disposes; identify grounds which were exposed to, to 23 nuclear and other hazardous materials. 24 And if you'll bear with me, I'd like to 25 get to a very specific way in which radiation. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 374 1 experiments on human test subjects have been 2 affected, of course, and this report deserves 3 immediate scrutiny and release. However, in 4 examination of existing and abandoned facilities, 5 soil and ground water, soil and groundwater present an 6 immediate and critical health hazard. 7 In many areas resultant loss of 8 institutional memory concerning past activity creates 9 a barrier to discovery of the truth. I'd like to 10 talk about a very specific example in that regard, 11 which is the Camp Park site in Alameda County. 12 In 1993 Western States Legal Foundation 13 went to court and got an injunction to prevent 14 non-violent protestors arrested at the nearby 15 Lawrence Livermore Laboratory from being jailed at 16 Camp Park site in Pleasanton because it had been used 17 as a site of various kinds of human radiation 18 experiments. 19 And incidentally, in 1982, I, along 20 with more than 1,000 other non-violent protestors, 21 spent three days held in a gymnasium where plutonium 22 experiments had been conducted. Some type of 23 perverse justice, I suppose? 24 January of '93, this year, after 25 Secretary O'Leary's release of new data, new 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 375 1 information appeared regarding Camp Park, and I'm 2 going to talk about one specific document. My 3 organization went to the Nuclear Regulatory 4 Headquarters in Walnut Creek, and incidentally, the 5 files which were used in the 1992 lawsuit aren't 6 there. If we didn't have them separate we would have 7 never seen those records again. 8 But we did find some others, and there 9 which we find to be very shocking is a license 10 application to the Atomic Energy Commission dated 11 March twenty-ninth, 19774, from the Stanford Research 12 Institute, an application to use radionuclides, 13 including biproduct materials between the atomic 14 number 3 and 32, including Strontium-95 and 15 Ruthenium-95 for research and development regarding 16 interaction of radioactive fallout with environmental 17 systems. 18 This rather remarkable document starts 19 out by bemoaning the, the lack of real radioactive 20 fallout available for experiments, which is caused by 21 the unfortunate ban on above-ground testing. It says 22 synthetic radioactive fallouts have been developed 23 which can be used in many experimental programs which 24 can be, which are used to formulate survival and 25 recovery measures for the protection of the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 376 1 population during and after a nuclear war. 2 The fallout simulation preparation 3 procedure developed as a result of this research 4 program have been used during the past few years to 5 prepared many batches of synthetic fallout for Office 6 of Civil Defense-Response Order environmental 7 studies. Synthetic fallout has been prepared to 8 various specifications for investigators at Cornell 9 University, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, University 10 of Tennessee, University of California, and Colorado 11 State University. 12 Special facilities have been developed 13 and maintained at Camp Park, California, for 14 facilities having widely varying projects in 15 quantities up to ton batches. 16 Fallout simulants have been developed 17 in processes, and experimental investigation have 18 been conducted for many years in a unique hot cell 19 facility at Camp Parks, California. The U.S. Naval 20 Radiologic Defense Laboratory relinquished control of 21 this facility on or about July 1, 1969, the, the, in 22 order to facilitate the proposed research program, 23 and has operated this facility to this date. 24 This example in particular illustrates 25 the need to clearly investigate the historical 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 377 1 records of all of the different agencies which have 2 been associated with each site. People, including 3 some of us here in the audience who were stationed at 4 Camp Parks, have come forward and expressed concerns 5 about a number of other kinds of reported 6 experimental radiation activities, including animal 7 experiments, experiments involving prison population 8 at the nearby jail, and so on. 9 And we would like to see this Committee 10 look into the scope and human impacts of the Camp 11 Parks experiments pursuant to your charter. 12 I'll conclude now. I, I want to make 13 this point. It doesn't neatly fit in, but I want to 14 underscore a particular concern we have, which is a 15 need to get rid of government and contractor immunity 16 as these investigations are pursued and 17 responsibilities ascribed. 18 Now, as far as this committee goes, I 19 feel very strongly, having met with a number of the 20 radiation victims who are here, that it's important 21 that expert survivors and their family members be 22 added to this without delay, more than one. I've 23 heard requests for as many as six. I think that's 24 critical. 25 There also have to be independent 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 378 1 scientists and physicians who are not in any way 2 connected with the facilities which sponsored the 3 experiments currently under review. As a stakeholder 4 I'm often asked how the Department of Energy can 5 improve public confidence. 6 Most recently I was surveyed by 7 Washington State University, which has been giving a 8 whole bunch of sociological studies on people like 9 me. Well, I submit if a number of the radiation 10 victims are truly independent radiation experts are 11 not added to this advisory committee, then this 12 public credibility of all its findings and facts will 13 be diminished. 14 On the other hand, this Committee has 15 the opportunity to take the, the first steps in 16 laying a new era for openness and accountability, and 17 setting the course for the beginning of the end of 18 the global 50-year human experiment. You've heard 19 many eloquent appeals from those who have suffered 20 most directly, and I urge you to please do the right 21 thing. 22 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Mrs. Cabasso. 23 Thank you for your comments. 24 Any questions? 25 DR. THOMAS: I was struck early in your 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 379 1 presentation by a comment you made in regard to the 2 design of new nuclear weapons facilities, about the 3 lack of oversight of environmental acts of these. 4 I'd like you to clear up a little bit about that. 5 We've just recently become aware of a 6 provisions in the National Environmental Policy, 7 Policy Act -- 8 MS. CABASSO: Uh-huh. 9 DR. THOMAS: -- which provides for a 10 secret appendix to the Environmental Impact 11 Statements, or even under certain situations in which 12 the entire Environmental Impact Statement could be 13 classified with, by EPA and, and by Congress, should 14 Congress be aware of it. 15 It seems to me that parallel to the 16 part about charters which asks us to look into the 17 adequacy of the base and its subjects in medical 18 research, there's an equally important part of our 19 charge which should ask whether or not, from the 20 environmental side, whether policies are advocates to 21 the kinds of environmental impacts. And I'd like to 22 hear something on this. 23 MS. CABASSO: Well, you raised a fairly 24 big, ugly, and complicated subject, as you know, 25 because these discussions are taking place within the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 380 1 framework of 50 years of a national security state 2 which has made decisions not based primarily on the 3 protection of human health and the environment. And 4 you have identified, in fact, a real problem with the 5 National Environmental Policy Act Environmental 6 Impact Statement process. 7 This is why, as members of the public, 8 we come into hearings like this one and others for 9 us, and say, "Look, we are not bound by the 10 institutional walls which require you to operate 11 narrowly between this purview and that purview." 12 This group is charged with looking at 13 human radiation experiments, but I am well aware, as 14 are you, that these radiation experiments did not 15 occur in a vacuum. They occurred in the context of a 16 very well developed base that had many other 17 permutations over the world. 18 And this is precisely why we're saying 19 50 years into the nuclear age, "enough is enough." 20 And we need full disclosure about 21 current stockpiles, projections about future 22 stockpiles, because those things are going to 23 determine the environmental and human impacts which 24 result. 25 And, and I would urge this Committee to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 381 1 press for exactly that kind of classification, 2 because you really cannot do your jobs properly if 3 you don't have that information. 4 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms. 5 Cabasso. We appreciate it. 6 MS. CABASSO: I have some written 7 materials, but I will leave them. 8 THE CHAIR: Absolutely. And anything 9 else you think we could use we would be glad to 10 receive. 11 Our next speaker is Ms. Marylia Kelley. 12 Thank you for staying. We appreciate 13 it. Thank you for hanging in there with us, too. 14 PRESENTATION BY MARYLIA KELLEY: 15 MS. KELLEY: Thank you. Name is 16 Marylia Kelley, and I am president of TriValley 17 CAREs, which stands for "Citizens Against Radioactive 18 Environment." 19 We're a Livermore-based organization 20 representing 1,100 families. Our group is 11 years 21 old this year, and I, myself, have lived in 22 Livermore, California, since the mid-1980s. 23 I live at 5720 East Avenue, one-half 24 block from the gates of the Lawrence Livermore 25 National Laboratory. If you have been out to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 382 1 Livermore Laboratory, you know that homes and 2 apartment complexes are build right up literally to 3 the gates. 4 What I am here as in essence is that 5 for 50 years our government has conducted a silent, 6 unpublicized nuclear war against its own citizens and 7 those of us who live around the nuclear weapons 8 facilities: Livermore, Hanford, Rocky Flats, 9 Fernald, and so on. Those of us who live in those 10 communities have been unwittingly on the front lines 11 of that silent nuclear war. 12 The definition of "radiation 13 experiments," when I look at it I see not how I and 14 my neighbors and members of my organization are 15 different from those who were experimented on in 16 hospitals and other clinical centers, but I see ways 17 in which our stories are the same. 18 We are not told the truth. When we 19 found out the truth we were lied to. When we were 20 able to document the truth we were told it was really 21 no harm to our particular health or the environment, 22 which is another level of a lie. 23 We cannot come here and tell you which 24 cancers in our community, which miscarriages in our 25 community, which diseases in our community were 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 383 1 caused by the Department of Energy. But we know 2 statistically that many of them were. 3 I'll tell you a little bit about news 4 from Livermore in a moment. Dr. John Gotman has 5 looked at the preliminary figures he sees under the 6 Biomedical Department. He estimated 120 cancers and 7 60 cancer deaths in Livermore. 8 I can't tell you which ones, but I know 9 they're responsible for some. And I would like to 10 say that it isn't our responsibility to have to be 11 able to come here and name them to you. 12 It's the Department of Energy and the 13 facilities' responsibility to prove that they are not 14 causing harm to human health and the environment. 15 Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory 16 was founded in 1952. It's primary mission, then as 17 now, is the development and testing and generation of 18 nuclear weapons. 19 Livermore was developed specifically to 20 develop the hydrogen bomb. We have been going 21 through public documents for ten years now, the 22 environmental impact reports, other documents we were 23 able to get under the Freedom of Information Act, 24 monitoring reports, et cetera, and we know that just 25 since 1960 there have been one million curies of 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 384 1 radiation released into the air in our community. 2 Like I said, the largest happened in 3 1953. Nineteen fifty-two to 1960 is a black hole 4 information-wise. We've looked at the, some of the 5 lab studies, and some of the estimates of what was 6 dumped in Hiroshima are right in that neighborhood, a 7 million curies. 8 Most of that radiation has been 9 tritium, which as a half-life, as you know, of 12.123 10 years. Some has been uranium, some has been 11 plutonium. 12 In 19663 we have been able to document 13 and uncover the was an unplanned chain reaction at 14 Livermore which contaminated at least four workers. 15 There have been numerous plutonium releases, 16 including some sent down the drain to the Livermore 17 sewerage treatment plant in 1968. 18 And again, this, this, this speaks to 19 the issue, what is an experiment. One might say, 20 we know that was an accident. 21 Half a gram of plutonium went through 22 the city's sewerage treatment plant and was found in 23 the sludge. They left it there for ten years. 24 After that, community people were 25 encouraged to come and pick up that sludge for free 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 385 1 and take it home and put it in their gardens. 2 Livermore Lab came and picked up some of that sludge, 3 took it back to the lab to plan a plutonium garden 4 so they could study the uptake of plutonium of 5 various vegetables. 6 Our community was both inadvertently 7 and deliberately experimented upon. I don't know if 8 you want to call them "experiments of opportunity" or 9 "experiments of accident," but nonetheless we share 10 that with other towns who are victims of the nuclear 11 age. 12 This is not just historical data. This 13 last month our organization received a plain brown 14 wrapper from the Environmental Protection Agency, 15 a document where they had gone behind a 1991 DE 16 investigation of plutonium in the soil at Livermore 17 Lab. 18 Now, I want to be real clear. 19 Livermore Lab has, and DOE have had this document for 20 at least a month that I know of, and they didn't make 21 it public. 22 I believe that someone, some unnamed 23 person in the EPA wants our organization to see this 24 document, because they were afraid that the Lab would 25 just sit on it. So how many other documents are not 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 386 1 there that we don't know about? 2 This document shows the, the EPA 3 samples taken this last yeart about fourt imes the 4 plutonium on site in 1991. This is in the top two 5 inches of soil at Livermore Laboratory. This is in one 6 area in the eastern quadrant, four times the 7 plutonium that was found in 1991. 8 Now, I don't know whether it's because 9 they took samples in a different location, or whether 10 it's deposition of plutonium since 1991. That can't 11 be known. But noentheless, that's something 12 significant, and the Lab sat on it. 13 The EPA went offsite to an area that 14 they assumed, according to their rpoert, was not 15 affected, and therefore had not been sampled in 1991 16 by DOE, and they never took samples before, and took 17 samples. That is west of the lab near where i live. 18 They grabbed three different samples. 19 One of them is called Big Trees Park, which is a park 20 that my son played almost every day he was growing 21 up. They only took one sample in Big Trees Park 22 Because, remember, that was not supposed to be a 23 contaminated zone. 24 That sample came up, that sample has 25 100 times the plutonium that you would expect to find 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 387 1 from a world-wide deposition of fallout. According 2 to the numbers, this, this record world wide 3 deposition of fallout, you would expect to find .001 4 to .01. 5 We are not down wind of any of the 6 world's test sites. You would expect to be on the 7 low end of that. 8 They found .164, which is 164 times the 9 lowest number, or to be conservative about it, about 10 100 times what they would expect. 11 We're asking, number one, that a 12 comprehensive sample program be undertaken; that the 13 area of known contamination be posted; and number 14 three, three, that all hot spots with a minimum of 15 bureaucratic wrangling be cleaned up. 16 Remember, this is plutonium found in 17 the top two inches of soil in a park. I mean, 18 anybody that's watching children in a park knows that 19 kids eat dirt, throw it up in the air, roll in it. 20 And there are numerous demonstrations. 21 For instance, I'm sure you have five or six feet of 22 them showing that microscopic particles of plutonium, 23 if inhaled, are enough to cause lung cancer. 24 Well, I don't know how long that 25 plutonium's been in there, in the sane or the soil 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 388 1 I don't know exactly where it is in the park. 2 I don't know if my child is one of the 3 children who inhaled some of that. I don't know if 4 in 20 years of 30 years my child will have that 5 health effect. 6 I just know that it's like Russian 7 roulette. It's probably sombody's child, and their 8 child is just as important and loved as my child is 9 to me. 10 I also know that now that our 11 organization had this document leaked to us and made 12 it public yesterday, in today's paper the Livermore 13 Lab spokesman, Jeff Barberson (phonetic), said, 14 "Nothing I'm aware of suggests the levels are 15 hazardous." 16 That's a way of being lied to; that 17 even when you prove, even when you document 18 contamination, we're told no harm to human health or 19 the environment. That's not true. 20 These kinds of radiation victims, those 21 of us who live in these communities around these 22 facilities, we need to be included as part of the 23 scope of this study. Recommendations need to be made 24 as to our communities, as well as to the experiments 25 done in the hospitals and other clinical settings. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 389 1 As I said, when I read their stroies, 2 they make me sad. I feel a tremendous common bond 3 with them. 4 If you have any questions I'll be happy 5 to answer them. I was told to keep it short, and so 6 I have. 7 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms. 8 Kelley. And thank you for respecting our time 9 constraints. That is very important to us. 10 Are there questions for Mrs. Kelley? 11 Ruth? 12 DR. MACKLIN: Just a brief factual 13 question. Maybe I wasn't listening as carefully as 14 I should. 15 You mentioned an accident that occurred 16 at Lawrence Livermore, and I didn't get when that 17 was, but my question was: Do you have any knowledge 18 of wether studies, any, any kind of follow up, 19 medical follow up was done and attempt to, as we have 20 been referring to it here, experiments of opportunity 21 on people who were exposed to radiation after that 22 accident? 23 MS. KELLEY: There have been numerous 24 accidents, and I mentioned two today. The one was in 25 1963, critical accidents north of the uranium area. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 390 1 In order to document that accident we 2 had to have one of our workers go behind the fence 3 and retrieve a very esoteric journal. That journal 4 listed the initials of the four workers, so we have 5 no way of knowing who they are, what they think, what 6 they feel, what's happened to them. So I have to 7 tell you, I don't know. 8 The other accident I mentioned is the 9 9167 accident where half a gram of plutonium was sent 10 to the city sewerage treatment plant, put in the 11 sludge, and people came home, I mean, brought it home 12 for their gardens. 13 The biomed-, the biochemist for the 14 city sewerage treatment plant at the time who called 15 me up on the phone after, looked my number up in the 16 phone book and told me that, that he's concerned 17 about his health because, of course, I don't know all 18 the details, but you, you burn a certain amount of 19 sludge to sort of look for organics and volations and 20 different things, and so he, he wasn't told and he's 21 under a hood merrily burning this stuff. 22 He told me that there was a, sort of a 23 guest register kind of thing kept by the city where 24 when you came you were, you were encouraged to, to 25 sign, and that the Livermore Laboratory came and took 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 391 1 it. So I have, I don't have access to it. 2 I don't know who the families are that 3 brought the sludge home, and I, and I, and I don't 4 know whether or not there will be any follow up 5 studies. 6 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much Ms. 7 Kelley. We appreciate this opportunity. 8 MS. KELLEY: I have one, I have one 9 thing that I was asked to do by the radiation 10 survivors. They wanted a chance to just stand before 11 you and they've asked me to very briefly light this 12 candle for radiation victims worldwide and for the 13 radiation survivors who will be giving you testimony 14 in Cincinnati. 15 (Whereupon, a candle was lit, the 16 audience stood, a period of silence was had, followed 17 by applause, after which the following occurred:) 18 MS. KELLEY: Thank you. 19 THE CHAIR: We will take a, a lunch 20 break at this point, an hour's break. 21 (Whereupon, at 1:26 p.m. PT the 22 Committee took a brief recess, and returned at 2:38 23 p.m. PT, after which the following occurred:) 24 THE CHAIR: We can resume our 25 deliberation. Let me again express our appreciation 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 392 1 to the members of the public for giving their time to 2 speak to us this morning, and address, to express our 3 regrets to those who wanted to speak but did not sign 4 up until late. And let me address those who did 5 speak and those who did not. 6 And if you have information to get to 7 our committee, we are very keen to get it, and our 8 staff is trying to figure out how best to make that 9 possible. 10 At this point we are going to move to 11 deliberations, and let me just say that, as I said 12 earlier, this is an exercise in open government. 13 This is open government, and we were using the term 14 when we were having lulnch, "warts and all." 15 We're going to plunge in together here, 16 into what we will define this beginning of the next 17 six months of the Committee's experience, which is to 18 focus on questions of ethics, remedies, and social 19 policy, and recommendations for the future, both, for 20 the benefit of people who are in the audience who 21 haven't been following us every step of the way. 22 This is our first joint-committee 23 venture together to look at, explicitly look at the 24 ethics of any particular experiment, and this is 25 really an exercise for the members of the committee 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733