BEFORE THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RADIATION EXPERIMENTS MEETING NUMBER 7 Day 3 of 3 October 13, 1994 San Francisco, California USA BUNN & ASSOCIATES Registered Professional Reporters Worldwide 81 Bixby Road Post Office Box 1602 Glenrock, Wyoming 82637 USA In USA 1-800-435-2468 Worldwide 001-307-436-2468 Worldwide Telefax 001-307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 483 1 COMMITTEE MEMBERS: 2 RUTH R. FADEN, Ph.D., M.P.H., Chair 3 KENNETH R. FEINBERG, J.D. 4 ELI J. GLATSTEIN, M.D. 5 JAY KATZ, M.D. 6 PATRICIA A. KING, J.D. 7 SUSAN E. LEDERER, Ph.D. 8 RUTH MACKLIN, Ph.D. 9 LOIS L. NORRIS 10 NANCY L. OLEINICK, Ph.D. 11 HENRY D. ROYAL, M.D. 12 PHILIP K. RUSSELL, M.D. 13 MARY ANN STEVENSON, M.D., Ph.D. 14 DUNCAN THOMAS, Ph.D. 15 REED V. TUCKSON, M.D. 16 DAN GUTTMAN Executive Director 17 ANNA MASTROIANNI 18 Associate Director 19 APPEARANCES: 20 BARBARA BIRNEY 21 SARA CHANDROS 21 JEREMY SUGARMAN 22 ATTENDEES: 23 Anna Mastroianni Staff 24 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 484 1 I N D E X Page 2 CALL TO ORDER 6 3 Ruth Faden, Chair 4 OPENING REMARKS 6 Ruth Faden, Chair 5 REPORTS FROM SUBCOMMITTEES 6 ORAL HISTORY 18 7 Susan Lederer 8 SUBJECT INTERVIEWS 27 Ruth Faden and Jeremy Sugarman 9 RESEARCH PROPOSAL REVIEW 32 10 Ruth Macklin and Sara Chandros 11 OUTREACH 67 Reed Tuckson 12 AGENCY UPDATES 71 13 Ruth Faden 14 REPORTS FROM SUBCOMMITTEES (Continued): 15 BIOMEDICAL RESEARCH-SELECTION OF CASE 85 STUDIES 16 Duncan Thomas and Barbara Berney 17 DAY 2 OPENING REMARKS 164 18 PUBLIC COMMENTS: 19 Nancy Lynch 177 20 San Ramon, California 21 Jackie Maxwell 187 Menlo Park, California 22 Vernon Sousa 197 23 San Francisco, California 24 Gwynne Burroughs 205 Chico, California 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 485 1 I N D E X (Continued) 2 Page PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): 3 Israel Torres 213 4 Nipomo, California 5 Audrey Hack 228 Union City, California 6 Richard Harley 232 7 Bakersfield, California 8 Don Arbitlit 240 San Francisco, California 9 Geoffrey Sea 251 10 San Francisco, California 11 Harold Bibeau 261 Portland, Oregon 12 Cherie Anderson 274 13 Placerville, California 14 Tom Wilson 280 Placerville, California 15 Michael Yesley 287 16 Los Alamos, New Mexico 17 Lynne Stembridge 300 Spokane, Washington 18 Trisha Pritikin 308 19 Berkeley, California 20 Lois Camp 320 21 Darcy Thrall 331 22 Bernard Lo 349 San Francisco, California 23 Jackie Cabasso 368 24 Oakland, California 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 486 1 I N D E X (Continued) 2 Page PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): 3 Marylia Kelley 381 4 TriValley CAREs 5 STAFF REPORT ON CASE STUDY OF PLUTONIUM 395 INJECTIONS 6 Gregg Herken 7 STAFF REPORT ON CONTEMPORARY ETHICS POLICIES 403 AND PRACTICES 8 Jonathan Moreno 9 STAFF REPORT ON INSTITUTIONAL CASE STUDY 459 SELECTION 10 Donald Weightman 11 DAY 3 OPENING REMARKS 487 Ruth Faden 12 REPORTS FROM SUBCOMMITTEES (Continued): 13 REMEDIES 489 14 Ken Feinberg 15 INTENTIONAL RELEASES AND EXPOSURES/ 505 EXPERIMENTS OF OPPORTUNITIES 16 Nancy Oleinick and Duncan Thomas 17 DISCUSSION OF INTERIM REPORT 525 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 487 1 BEFORE THE 2 COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RADIATION EXPERIMENTS 3 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 4 MEETING NUMBER 7 5 Public hearing was held pursuant to 6 Notice at a conference room of the San Francisco 7 Press Club, 555 Post Street, San Francisco, 8 California, USA, on the 13th day of October, 1994, 9 commencing at 8:10 a.m. PT. 10 Present: Ruth R. Faden, Chair; Kenneth 11 Feinberg; Dan Guttman; Susan E. Lederer; Ruth 12 Macklin; Lois L. Norris; Nancy Oleinick; Henry D. 13 Royal; Philip K. Russell; Mary Ann Stevenson; Duncan 14 Thomas; Reed V. Tuckson. 15 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 16 OPENING REMARKS 17 THE CHAIR: Okay, will the committee 18 members, it's like we will have another half day of 19 work here. Good morning, will the members of the 20 committee please come to the table so we can start, 21 please? 22 We have four things we have to do this 23 morning. We have to end by 11:45 because some of us 24 made flight arrangements. 25 We have to move over. Almost everybody 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 488 1 has a flight. And in a way it makes 11:45 really 2 have to be the end of the meeting. 3 So I think what we need to do is be as 4 expeditious as we can. Here are the four things we 5 have to do: 6 We have to hear from the Subcommittees; 7 we have to hear from the Intentional Releases 8 Subcommittee; and next I and Duncan are going to do 9 the report on the Intentional Releases. 10 We then have to look at the Interim 11 Report, which was our homework. And then we have to 12 spend some time thinking about how we might want to 13 reorganize ourselves for the next month and discuss, 14 for example, whether we don't want different kinds of 15 subcommittees dealing with different kinds of issues. 16 And so I have, you have been talking 17 informally, so there are certain plots hatching about 18 what kinds of subcommittees might be good to create. 19 But just, we have a break scheduled, but I think, 20 depending on how the work goes, we might just not 21 take a formal break, just get up if you need to get 22 up, and come back, not really have a break so we can 23 get everything done by 11:45. 24 Does that suit people? And since it is 25 a short day, I don't think we really need a full 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 489 1 break. 2 So, Ken, would you mind starting our 3 remedies? 4 REPORT ON REMEDIES 5 MR. FEINBERG: Thank you. I'll be 6 brief for the reasons Ruth states, and also the 7 schedule has been very brief. Everybody, I think 8 has read, or has received the materials submitted by 9 the Remedies staff on what's out there in terms of 10 existing compensation proposals, and I'm not going to 11 repeat any of that material. 12 You can look at and see that there are 13 a handful of programs that Congress has enacted to 14 deal with downwinders; atomic veterans; uranium 15 miners; et cetera; the Marshal Islanders. 16 And I, instead, in five or ten 17 minutes, no more, I want to raise for the group in 18 conjunction with our ongoing work as a Remedies 19 Subcommittee the issues that jump out when you take a 20 look at the materials in the book on remedies; the 21 issues that one experiences in looking at the 22 Statutes, and looking at the cases; the, the, the 23 legal issues that have arisen. 24 First, you'll notice the haphazard 25 nature of the remedies. Congress acts when it, it's 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 490 1 obligated to act. 2 There is absolutely no consistent 3 approach to the issue of how to compensate a remedy 4 to an allegedly wronged individual who is the victim 5 of some sort of radiation exposure. It is catch as 6 catch can. 7 There are few statutes. The cases 8 almost uniformly deny any remedy for legal reasons. 9 So this Committee should be aware that 10 whatever we do in the way of remedies, we are, we are 11 not comparing our work to any overall master plan of 12 the Congress or the Administration. There is none. 13 That's first. 14 Second, noticing, notice in the 15 materials the, the, the distinction which jumps out 16 at you between remedies designed to rectify 17 environmental release decisions of the Government and 18 individual experimentation. The latter does not have 19 any legislative, statutory precedent. 20 Where Congress has acted in a few areas 21 it always involves the, the, the environmental 22 releases, the environmental exposures. That's what 23 Congress has directed its attention to. 24 Now, the staff memo does not mention 25 the fact that there have been examples where Congress 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 491 1 has enacted private legislation to compensate 2 individual victims of experimentation. There are a 3 few examples of that, CIA, LSD. There are a few 4 examples of that. 5 The Church Committee in the mid-1970s 6 raised the issue how to compensate individuals who 7 were wronged by secret experimentation, but for the 8 most part, overwhelming most part, it's environmental 9 releases that give rise to broad-based compensation 10 in Congress, and that's important as we go forward, 11 that distinction. 12 Third, you will notice when you examine 13 these limited number of government programs that the 14 Government passes the buck on the issue of causation, 15 as it must. You'll notice that the Government in 16 these statutes creates statutory presumptions for 17 compensation: If you were exposed; if you lived in 18 the area; if you have one of a listed number of 19 diseases, you are compensated. 20 Don't talk about dose reconstruction. 21 Don't talk about medical causation. If you've got 22 the disease and you're in the exposed area, you will 23 get compensation. 24 This is a lesson, I think, for all of 25 us to take into account in the next few months as we 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 492 1 develop a Remedies chapter. Congress recognizes the 2 ultimate "black hole" of trying to demonstrate 3 causation in many of these areas, and simply 4 presumes, as does the Veteran's Administration, 5 service-related diseases are caused by, we'll presume 6 it, and that's the end of that. 7 And I think the use of statutory, 8 regulatory presumptions are, are, are something that 9 this Committee is going to have to consider in the 10 context of developing a Remedies Guidelines chapter. 11 Next -- almost through. Next, notice, 12 notice the limited amount of compensation that's made 13 available. It's almost akin to a Worker's 14 Compensation model: 15 Victim, we'll minimize the amount of 16 work you have to go through to demonstrate and 17 corroborate your case. You don't have to bring in 18 documents to show causation. we'll give you the 19 benefit of a statutory presumption. 20 In return, no pot of gold. We'll give 21 to you $10,000. We'll give you, today, $4,000. 22 We'll give you, maybe in a summa cum laude case, 23 $75,000. But notice that the remedies are not tied 24 to any tort principle of punitive damage or anything. 25 Limited proffer equates to limited 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments 494 1 dollars; and that's an important factor in all of 2 these programs. 3 Next, notice that most of the 4 claimants, when they claim under one of these 5 programs, gets zero. I was struck by the staff 6 memorandum that points out that the overwhelming 7 number of people who make a claim in these programs 8 ends up being denied any compensation. 9 So these programs, even with their 10 limited prerequisite of recovery, seem to, as 11 applied, throw out the great number of claimants. 12 That is why nobody, as far as I know, is particularly 13 happy with any of these programs. 14 The, the, the consumers of the 15 programs, the claimants, claim that after all they 16 went through to get statutes or veteran's regulations 17 enacted, as applied, they're being too restrictively 18 applied, and the great bulk of people are not getting 19 paid. 20 Many government officials and 21 government scientists and government lawyers are 22 outraged at the programs, saying that these statutory 23 presumptions that are being created gut any principle 24 decision concerning science, causation, medicine, et 25 cetera. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments 494 1 Also notice that, as pointed out by the 2 staff, that the Government, many government officials 3 are unhappy with these programs because insofar as 4 they provide any compensation or any remedy, that is 5 done despite the fact that as a legal matter the 6 Government has immunity and would likely, any 7 claimant would likely be, and has been non-suited 8 because of their inability in court to get around 9 legal defenses that the United States Government has, 10 and its contractors have, that prevent compensation. 11 So, a noble effort, I think, by 12 Congress to carry out certain haphazard compensation 13 systems, but in point of fact, as I, as a student of 14 those compensation systems, I don't see that many 15 people are particularly pleased with them on either 16 side of the fence. So we ought to keep that in mind. 17 Finally, unrelated to the memo, during 18 the next 30 to 60 days, the November meeting, the 19 December meeting, the, the rather dormant Remedies 20 Subcommittee, for reasons related to priorities, 21 first of all, but the Remedies Subcommittee is 22 actively gearing up. I hope to have, as chairman, 23 with my colleagues on the committee, we hope to have 24 a first-draft proposal at the next meeting, certainly 25 by the December meeting, on Remedies guidelines, an 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 495 1 approach that the Committee might want to take on how 2 we address these sort of provocative issues. 3 And I hope to have something to the 4 Subcommittee in the next couple of weeks, and then to 5 a full Committee. 6 So we'll certainly, in light of the 7 Chair mentioning the fact that we've got, you know, 8 restructuring, and as well as the Committee during 9 the next few months, clearly the remedies aspect of 10 this looms large in the future and will be moving 11 very expeditiously to try to deal with some of these 12 problems and get some guidelines to the full 13 Committee. 14 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Ken. It's very 15 helpful, actually; very, very helpful. 16 We have time for a few questions of 17 Ken. I knew there might be. Let me just start my 18 little list: Duncan, Phil, Henry, Lois, did I see 19 okay, I've got Duncan, Phil, Henry and Lois. Start 20 there. 21 DR. THOMAS: I've got three things to 22 say. First of all, I'd like to make a request of 23 satisfaction on the issue of how these compensation 24 tenets that we already have are performing. 25 And what I have in mind is something 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 496 1 more than just the tabulations of the frequency with 2 which claims are denied. But I'd like to know some 3 reasons why they're denied. 4 Is it because the, the individuals 5 have, do not have the presumed, the presumptive 6 diagnoses, or are unable to establish the fact that 7 they were a soldier? Is it problems with the 8 documentation? Is it bureaucratically related? what 9 are those reasons? 10 And that would be, I think, very 11 helpful information for us in framing our report for 12 the next meeting, if we could have that information. 13 The other point I wanted to make is 14 that although I'm a strong supporter of the notion of 15 presumptive diagnosis as the way of, as the model, we 16 should consider there's problems with presumptive 17 diagnoses. They list 15 cancers there in the, and 18 we're looking at, for precedence. Those diagnoses 19 were presumably based on the NIH Tables Report which 20 was commissioned specially for that reason. 21 They do give us the rough idea of the 22 coordination of what they came up with in terms of 23 diagnosis, and what the report recommended. I've 24 circulated a little two-page note here which simply 25 tables the diagnoses which are in and which are out 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 497 1 of that group, together with the scientific basis. 2 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 3 DR. THOMAS: Now, the scientific basis 4 need to be taken with a large grain of salt. This is 5 very much a subjective conjunction, and it's my 6 writing based upon, first of all, what's in the 7 tables from, NIH tables as well. 8 And there's another column which says, 9 "Scientific Efforts." "Scientific Efforts" column is 10 kind of a combination of both the degree of 11 regulatory sensitivity and the, the extent and 12 consistency of the scientific literature. 13 One example of the scientific literature 14 is the second page of this, which is from the last 15 report. It's something to the magnitude of the risk 16 estimate. So remember, that's something you want to 17 consider in the sources of information you have. 18 Anyway, take with a large grain of salt 19 my judgment of the individual sciences having strong, 20 weak, or moderate efforts. My point is, there is 21 some discordances, and some of the discordances might 22 be interesting; for example, taking lung cancer and 23 colon cancer. 24 I would venture to say that one of the 25 main reasons why they exclude this is simply that 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 498 1 they are very common cites, and the bill would be 2 enormous if they would include that. You have some 3 sort of exclusion. 4 And as soon as you get into exclusions 5 for lung cancer, then you get back into this problem 6 of certain causation, although there's plenty of 7 evidence that lung cancers have been generated. 8 So the often-thought act which was the, 9 let's just say, the pancake for NIH to create these 10 tables, included the clause which I'll read: "The 11 Secretary of Health and Human Services shall update 12 these tables and formulas every four years, or 13 whenever he deems it necessary, to make sure they 14 continue to represent the best available scientific 15 evidence." 16 Now, these were written in 1985. They 17 have not been updated since. It's now almost ten 18 years later. 19 We, of course, are not properly 20 constituted to do this job ourselves. We don't have 21 the expertise. 22 But I think as far as the Record of 23 this Committee, I think that the activities of this 24 Committee is to make a strong recommendation that 25 it's high time this is done, to try to develop a Human Radiation Experiments/SF 499 1 presumptive diagnosis based on this. And that's a 2 possibility that this Committee could do. 3 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much for 4 that listing. Now we know why Duncan was on the 5 Subcommittee on Remedies. People who self-select are 6 so useful. 7 Phil? 8 DR. RUSSELL: My basic question, it was 9 the same as Duncan's first question. The first 10 question is why? And then in addition to the 11 analysis, I think we have to look at the underlying 12 analysis. 13 Did Congress really intend for them to 14 work in poorly, or was it just bad legislation, or 15 was the intent to be restrictive? You can only 16 uncover that with some understanding of the 17 legislative history, and probably not obvious to the 18 surface. 19 MR. FEINBERG: Let me just respond very 20 briefly. I think that a staff inquiry will 21 demonstrate that the primary reason the claimants are 22 unsuccessful is they don't satisfy the demonstrated 23 prerequisites demonstrating illness. 24 They can show the exposure, and the 25 government has that exposure. I think it's a failure 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 500 1 to demonstrate presumptive illness. 2 They don't realize that the program is 3 limited to certain presumptive illnesses. And the 4 great bulk of claims involve claims other than the 5 presumptive, which give rise to a case-by-case 6 situation, which is almost always unsuccessful. 7 I think Congress intended to restrict 8 the program, but again you can get cancers, as you 9 know, Phil, quite unrelated for years. The federal 10 Black Lung Program involving West Virginia coal 11 miners was considered too restrictive. 12 Too many miners are denied 13 compensation. A few years ago they added to the 14 Black Lung Program to make it easier to make a claim. 15 My understanding is, today more people 16 have been compensated today under that program than 17 ever working in a mine, because, because the 18 statutory presumptions were so diluted it made it 19 much easier to become compensated. And now they've 20 gone back and restricted the compensation again. So 21 this is -- 22 THE CHAIR: That you think's worth, we 23 should do that. 24 MR. FEINBERG: Oh, and that's a 25 relatively, relatively simple task, because the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 501 1 legislative, the history is clear. 2 THE CHAIR: Henry. 3 DR. ROYAL: The points that I wished to 4 raise have been raised. 5 THE CHAIR: Lois. 6 MS. NORRIS: I'm confused by the 7 Special Function Exception to the Federal Tort Claims 8 Act; not that I don't understand the exception, but I 9 can't for the life of me figure out any kind of 10 government action or impacts which wouldn't fall in 11 that section. Can you give me an example of 12 something that wouldn't fall within that section? 13 MR. FEINBERG: Yes, the Government 14 points to ministerial functions. Why we're driving a 15 mail truck is not a discretionary function. 16 If the mail, if, if the Postal Service 17 employee is ordered to work from 9:00 to 5:00 and 18 deliver the mail, he's not exercising any discretion; 19 he's following a policy of driving and delivering the 20 mail. 21 That's why the Government doesn't hide 22 behind the discretionary test when mail drivers run 23 over pedestrians. That is rather a ministerial act 24 in promoting government policy to deliver the mail. 25 I have always, as you have, questioned 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human-Radiation Experiments/SF 502 1 the application of the Discretionary Function Test, 2 but clearly one thing is certain: it is a major 3 legal obstacle to recovery in any of the cases that 4 build up as a matter of law. 5 MR. GUTTMAN: Can I ask him something? 6 THE CHAIR: Yes. 7 MR. GUTTMAN: Ken, what if, what about 8 the, the things we've been talking about, the 9 so-called Nuremburg Protocol Policy, and things like 10 that. Is that something where if the area was 11 covered there could be exceptions, the failure to 12 follow something like the Secretary's -- 13 MR. FEINBERG: I think you would have 14 to look to see where it wasn't followed, and I'll bet 15 you the United States Government could argue 16 effectively in the court that the failure to follow 17 the Nuremburg -- 18 MR. GUTTMAN: So-called -- 19 MR. FEINBERG: Yeah, the so-called 20 falls within the exemption of the national security 21 rules, and -- 22 THE CHAIR: Just to go back, me and Dan 23 have been going back and forth on this, Dan as a 24 lawyer, me as a non-lawyer. So it's real reassuring. 25 MR. GUTTMAN: Well, let me say we've 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 503 1 had discussions about these cases that were the ones 2 in the Federal cases in the memo, the ALLEN cases, 3 and so forth, and there's a question. 4 What would have happened had the 5 parties in the cases known about the Nuremburg rules? 6 The second question is whether the Government, let's 7 put that completely aside, but were that raised 8 versus were that not raised, could that have been? 9 MR. FEINBERG: Maybe. Although if you 10 read the Supreme Court Decision involving ALLEN, 11 involving the downwinders, it's hard for me to see 12 how that would have changed that decision. 13 That Court so sanctioned the broad 14 section that I think it would be raised, and probably is effectively raised. 16 MR. GUTTMAN: You got the idea that 17 that was -- 18 THE CHAIR: Susan. 19 DR. LEDERER: Ken, would there be some 20 value to look beyond that to see if this would be of 21 some benefit to look at the chemical cases? 22 MR. FEINBERG: It might be. It could 23 be. 24 It's very interesting to look at the VA 25 policy on service-related compensation. You know, as 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 504 1 I recall it, multiple sclerosis is a compensable 2 injury for World War II vets. 3 And to show you how relevant all of 4 this is, just last week, or a couple of days ago, I 5 guess, Congress enacted a new compensation plan to 6 cover Desert Storm veterans with certain presumptions 7 and certain claims that this is Service-related. 8 So I think probably it, it's worthwhile 9 to look at Agent Orange and some of these other 10 programs involving chemical injury. But I don't 11 think that at the end of the day there's going to be 12 any answer. 13 I mean, again we'll have the same 14 problem: no medical causation; proof of exposure; 15 and then the big question, what remedies do you want 16 to have available under what situations? what 17 guidelines? 18 What cash remedies? What alternative 19 remedies: medical monitoring, the life insurance 20 programs, anxiety counseling? There are a lot of 21 creative ways you can go with this. 22 THE CHAIR: No questions or comments 23 for Ken? 24 Ken, thank you. It laid out the 25 program, and it's really whether the programs not 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 505 1 just for the standards part, but also for the 2 remedies standards part. 3 And the point is November, November, 4 December, and January will be given over big 5 committee time to exploration of remedies and the 6 exploration of questions of standards. 7 So although this is intriguing, but 8 obviously not satisfying, since we can't go very far 9 with it, we should comfort ourselves with the fact 10 that we're going to spend a lot of time getting the 11 rest of us better prepared to debate these in 12 November, December. 13 All right, thank you very much. 14 All right. Now we go to Intentional 15 Releases, and Duncan and Nancy. 16 REPORT ON INTERNATIONAL RELEASES AND EXPOSURES/ 17 EXPERIMENTS OF OPPORTUNITIES: 18 DR. OLEINICK: All right. I'm going to 19 start since I'm only a part of the team, I guess. 20 But we'll try to, there are several issues that we'll 21 be discussing. And in the past month, staff has 22 presented a tabular summary of known releases 23 emphasizing what we know and do not know. 24 Data gathering, like I say, is 25 continuing, and we have indicated areas in which we 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 506 1 need additional information. DOD and DOE apparently 2 have agreed to cooperate, but it's apparent to us 3 that gaps in those cases preclude a full-scale 4 evaluation of many of these events. Even the Charter 5 13 we have a lot of gaps in information. 6 There are several approaches that we 7 wish to take. The one that I want to talk about is 8 the issue of secrecy. 9 Much of the difficulty in retrieving 10 information results from classification. Much of the 11 information remains classified, and it's still not 12 clear how we will handle the whole issue. 13 The subcommittee has discussed the 14 certain options, and we feel that we need to have 15 some guidance on the whole issue of secrecy, and what 16 we can and can't expect. We would like to suggest to 17 staff that we have some kind of a presentation at the 18 next meeting, hopefully, addressing questions such as 19 the various criteria for those classifications, why 20 information on 50-year-old veterans remains 21 classified, whether similar events can occur today 22 under the veil of secrecy. 23 Now, the proposing here on the area of 24 secrecy ought to really focus on issues that are of 25 primary interest to our subcommittee, and primarily 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 507 1 on Green Run and other releases, and so forth. But 2 since the issues of secrecy pervades all of the 3 issues to be examined by this Committee, we would 4 recommend that this presentation also deal with 5 questions related to the biomedical experiments, 6 particularly questions in terms of available records 7 still being a secret, and why information on some of 8 the experiments again still remain secret, and again, 9 also the question of whether this kind of secrecy is 10 still a part of policy today. 11 I think we need to have some of this 12 information in order to make the next step, and to 13 evaluate for ourselves how much we wish to push apart 14 that veil of secrecy. On the one hand, we could 15 decide that this is, this is as much material as 16 we're going to have, and we're going to have to make 17 the best judgment we can based on the information 18 that is already in hand. 19 On the other hand, it is possible that 20 we actually will lose the credibility because we 21 haven't even tried to get some of this initial 22 information which could be of great value to us and 23 this is an opportunity to get at some of this 24 information. It may be first, it may be the last 25 opportunity in a long time to understand some of the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 508 1 material. 2 And so I think we need some guidance as 3 to how to handle the whole issue of secrecy, and 4 we're asking staff to help to put something together. 5 Now I think that I'm going to let 6 Duncan, then, work on the next issue, and then we 7 might talk about the priorities for data gathering. 8 DR. THOMAS: Just to conclude the 9 discussion of secrecy, we want to emphasize that time 10 is of the essence. By the next meeting, at the very 11 latest, we have to, I think, finally have a request 12 for access to secret information. 13 It's our view this is an important 14 area, and it deserves more time for debate and, and 15 some background presentation than we can do justice 16 to today. So as a factual matter, this is a 17 discussion we probably should have for the next 18 meeting. 19 But then we need to make a decision 20 once and for all. Are we going to try to see these 21 secret documents? And how are we going to go about 22 it? 23 Then we have to make a pitch for 24 declassification. And we recognize it's going to 25 take a while. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiment/SF 509 1 Then if, in, you know, if we don't get 2 started in this process by next week, we're not going 3 to have the information in time to have it do 4 anything. 5 And I want to talk about two things: 6 our priorities for data gathering, and medical 7 standards. With regard to data gathering, work is 8 ticking along, things like the Charter 13, which we 9 decided at last meeting was going to remain our, our 10 top priority. 11 And also I want to say that we haven't 12 forgotten things like uranium miners. And that 13 matter is still going on, but it's developmental at 14 this meeting and we're not prepared to talk about 15 them at this, this point in time. 16 The last meeting we identified three 17 priorities for future base sitings, and we decided 18 that this time we need to really crimp back even 19 further and try to do one case study to try to do for 20 the next meeting along the lines of compensation, and 21 get, get in to try, trying to reach some sort of 22 ethical judgment on a trial basis. The three which 23 we talked about last meeting were Green Run, the Kiwi 24 Fests, and the various things related to the atomic 25 veterans. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 510 1 We can, the thought this morning was 2 that we ought to give priority to, to Green Run for a 3 number of reasons; for instance, because of the 4 initial interest, we do know a fair amount about it. 5 It does raise the issues of secrecy, 6 which we'll have to confront, but I think we can go 7 ahead and base some ethical judgments based on what 8 we know already. I would like to see that discussion 9 structured much the way in which the discussion of 10 the plutonium injections we had yesterday so that we 11 begin with a statement as to where our development of 12 ethical principles, and what are the relevant facts, 13 and then we do the ethical analysis at that stage. 14 That brings me then to the second thing 15 I wanted to say, which is ethical principles. This, 16 this is something I think we'll have to think a great 17 deal about so far on this, this committee. 18 We've had extensive discussion 19 regarding ethical principles regarding medical 20 experiments, but not very much on the intentional 21 releases. And it's really a parallel study, and it's 22 one we should start thinking about. 23 And one thing is an issue, are a number 24 of ways that are rather different; whereas, informed 25 consent looms very large in the medical 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 511 1 experimentation arena. 2 I don't think anybody seriously ever 3 expected the United States Government to ask the 4 permission of the downwinders of the Nevada test site 5 as to the tests. what is actually more important in 6 this context is disclosure. 7 What information should have been 8 provided? To what extent was information provided 9 actually received? What sort of warnings should have 10 been issued? All this sort of stuff. 11 Also parallel to the ethical 12 evolutions, risks versus benefits. There's a 13 question of risks versus benefits in the actual 14 releases, but here it's not so much individual risks 15 that we're concerned with; rather the general 16 population risks. 17 And I think there are subtle 18 differences there as well that should be informed. 19 At, at this point I'm really caught in the throes. 20 I don't know how to go about setting 21 the guidelines, but it occurred to me that there 22 actually is an organized body of efforts, maybe I 23 should say a disorganized body of efforts spearheaded 24 by a group of individuals who are starting to think 25 about these questions. So I took it upon myself to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 512 1 have a dialogue with some of these people. 2 Having not gotten the material ever, 3 I'm aware that there are various documents 4 circulating as the various national societies, 5 individual societies are trying to develop ethics 6 guidelines in this area. I think they may have 7 something to teach us as we look at it. 8 I'm going to continue to pursue this, 9 and hopefully by the next meeting we will be in a 10 position of having a basic first-cut at some ethical 11 standards which we may want to consider for the 12 guideline evaluation. 13 Now, parallel to the ethical-standards 14 issue is the issue of government regulation, and this 15 very much turns on the question: Could these things 16 happen again? 17 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. 18 DR. THOMAS: Presumably, if one wanted 19 to do a Green Run today, the first thing you would 20 have to do is, would be to file some kind of an 21 Environmental Impact Statement. 22 But we've just recently learned, as we 23 talked about this yesterday, that there is, in fact, 24 a provision in the National Environmental Policy Act 25 for such Environmental Impact Statements to be 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 513 1 wholly, or at least in part, classified. So it comes 2 back to some of these questions about secrecy. 3 Ordinarily we need to be able to tell 4 your people whether or not we think that the current 5 mechanisms for regulation and oversight of these 6 kinds of activities are adequate. And, and it is a 7 foredrawn conclusion to me right now that it would 8 not be possible to do another Green Run today and 9 keep it too quiet. 10 So these are issues which I think are 11 very important. And so these are issues that we have 12 to consider as well. 13 So, with that I guess I'll open it for 14 discussion, that one of the key points is, is coming 15 back to our first, the Green Run versus-our-choice of 16 Green Run as our first test site; and also to 17 consider the other two alternatives: those atomic 18 vets, and atomic vets versus a source, and that would 19 form the basis of a case study. But I just have 20 those. 21 THE CHAIR: I've got Henry and Phil. 22 Henry? 23 DR. ROYAL: I want to bring up an issue 24 that I'm totally confused about that has to do with 25 environmental releases so that other members on the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 514 1 committee can help, help me. 2 Duncan said that just as with medical, 3 with respect to the environmental releases we have to 4 measure the exposure. And we were talking about 5 whether or not such a thing could happen today. 6 I don't think that anyone on this 7 committee, in my own personal opinion, really thinks 8 that, that, that Green Run could happen today. But I 9 think the reason the Green Run, well, I would say I'm 10 talking about, I'm talking about public exposure in 11 the way that, that has been suggested now, that 12 there, there are secrets done, I know, but the idea 13 that they're going to announce to the public, and 14 they're going to do an Environmental Impact Study, 15 and they're going to do this all in the open, I don't 16 think any of us believe that we as a society would 17 find that as an acceptable thing. 18 But the thing that's confusing to me is 19 that the reason is determined by the risk versus the 20 perceived benefit. And it seems to me that one of 21 the things that's happening in the post-Cold War era 22 is things that we were seeing as terribly important 23 and terribly beneficial then, are now, we're all very 24 comfortable and we don't feel very threatened. 25 So at this time when we don't feel 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 515 1 worried and we don't feel threatened, it's hard to 2 think that the risk-versus-benefit ratio would 3 warrant such an event. 4 But is it conceivable that in the 5 future we would feel threatened and we would feel 6 that something had to be done that was so important 7 for the survival of the population that we would, 8 would change what we would be willing to do? 9 And I don't know how to factor any of 10 that in, but I'd be interested in the committee 11 members, reactions. 12 THE CHAIR: Phil, do you want to 13 comment on that, or do you want me to? Because I'd 14 like to pick up on his point. 15 DR. RUSSELL: The risk/benefit issue is 16 probably the most difficult one. And the issue of 17 who determines the value of the benefits, which those 18 are what Duncan's wondering, how are the decisions 19 made to keep the activity secret, and how is the, and 20 what are the proper guidelines in the, for doing the 21 analysis. 22 For much of this I think we're going to 23 have difficulty finding out what processes, to say 24 nothing of who, who has the approval for. And, and 25 certainly the, for those things that are still 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 516 1 classified, at least somebody is thinking there's 2 still good reason for it. 3 And there, so there is a, a benefit to 4 the Nation, at least in the mind of the, the agency, 5 to keep it classified. 6 I think I agree with Duncan. We ought 7 to get the Green Run thing out and take a look at it, 8 and see what kind of conclusion we can draw. 9 I think we're going to have great 10 difficulty in dealing with the benefit side in this 11 case, unlike the other experiments where the benefits 12 have been easier to, to discern. 13 The risk is, is sometimes more 14 difficult to, to, here the, the benefit is much more 15 problematic and much more difficult, too, because it 16 has to do with the level of threat from, the initial 17 threat and the, the national response to that 18 external threat. 19 It's difficult to do that, and it's 20 easier to do in a military mode than in, in the, in, 21 combine it with an ethical analysis. We've got our 22 work cut out for us. 23 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. 24 MR. GUTTMAN: The point of information 25 may be actually, this may be, we haven't got very 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 517 1 many easy things to do, but in some respects it may 2 be that this is a relatively clear case; not a clear 3 case, but there are some environmental regulations. 4 The staff has done some preliminary 5 work to talk to the people who are expert in this 6 area, and theoretically, theoretically anything of 7 consequence, and the question is, what's that mean? 8 Initially who would be subject to 9 so-called environmental assessments? And if it's a 10 big thing it would involve an environmental impact, 11 and that would include military as well, and 12 everything, Air Force, et cetera, et cetera. That 13 would go to EPA. 14 And this is, I didn't realize there's 15 an office called the Federal Facilities Office-in EPA 16 that oversees what would be Green Run things that are 17 taking place in DOE facilities, so that there's 18 actually a well-defined procedural process. And the 19 thing that's mentioned when talking to the staff, one 20 thing, it's a practice. And they know that in 21 practice things do get conducted in secrecy. 22 And maybe the Department of Army will 23 say Appendix X is classified. And the question we're 24 asking is: Is it possible the whole thing could be 25 classified and no citizen would know this? Human Radiation Experiments/SF 518 1 And the question is: How do we know 2 this is being enforced? 3 DR. RUSSELL: But is that really true, 4 that EPA has to approve classified work? 5 MR. GUTTMAN: Well, there's a process, 6 first of all. EPA, at the 1987 NEPA efforts, it, 7 it's '87, Richard Nixon, in this law, has a 8 procedural statement, so it doesn't give the EPA the 9 authority to say, "You can't do it." It's the 10 question, "Have you done the paperwork?" 11 DR. RUSSELL: Yeah. Actually the, the 12 EPA has no authority over those. They have to file 13 an Impact Statement. 14 MR. GUTTMAN: But all I want to say is, 15 there's a procedure. 16 THE CHAIR: Dan, we're not ready. 17 MR. GUTTMAN: Yes, yes, yes. 18 THE CHAIR: But we're not ready to say, 19 "Here's how it works." 20 MR. GUTTMAN: Yeah, and we weren't 21 trying to do that. 22 THE CHAIR: So we were clearly always a 23 procedure matter. 24 MR. GUTTMAN: Yes. 25 THE CHAIR: Can I take it Duncan and 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 519 1 Nancy's subcommittees have made a proposal that is 2 taken by the whole Subcommittee to use Green Run to 3 work out the contemporary situation; to understand 4 what are the procedures and policies that would 5 govern a Green-Run type today, or whatever the Green 6 Run equivalent would be, and then we will make an 7 assessment of our view about whether that policy for 8 procedures seems appropriate? 9 DR. RUSSELL: It's going to be 10 difficult, but if they won't declassify the 11 underlying reasons -- 12 THE CHAIR: Well, one of the issues 13 that we will face with respect to Green Run and the 14 classification that will be left to the Subcommittee, 15 is people with clearances, you know, it's a circular 16 thing, that we have people with clearances on staff 17 who could look at documents that were classified 18 before staff and other members could look-at the 19 Green Run. 20 So we have this terrible problem. It's 21 a terrible problem, especially when we get things 22 that say "Green Run," stuff they won't declassify. 23 So we have to muster all of our muscles to declassify 24 as much of the Green Run documentation as can be 25 declassified. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 520 1 Henry? 2 DR. ROYAL: How can the Committee avoid 3 looking at classified documents? Because the charge 4 against the Committee, if we don't look at classified 5 documents, is going to be, we don't know what we 6 haven't looked at. 7 So the only way we could assure the 8 public that there's not something in a classified 9 document that they should know about is by having 10 looked at the classified materials. 11 THE CHAIR: Well, that's the other 12 strategy, is to say, "Okay, we're going to look at 13 it." And we're going to say, "Declassify the 14 document." 15 To the public, "There's stuff out there 16 you need to know. There's a process we can't get it 17 out for you, but it's really important." 18 DR. ROYAL: But we can say, "We have 19 looked at classified material, and it's appropriate. 20 But it's not relevant to the Committee's policy." 21 THE CHAIR: Yeah, whichever. And I 22 don't know. I'm in a quandary. 23 MR. GUTTMAN: Actually, from a staff's 24 point of view, there are two classifications. One is 25 Green Run when the Air Force says, "It's in the box 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 521 1 over here. Do you want to see it or not?" 2 And that's this difficult question. 3 We're no-- sure we want to look in the box. 4 And the other is the Army's saying, 5 "We've got millions of boxes of nuclear warfare 6 stuff. I don't think you guys want to look at it, 7 but here's the --" 8 THE CHAIR: That's easy. The tougher 9 is where the message is, "We're not going to 10 declassify. Stand on your head. We're not going to 11 declassify this information. If you want to look at 12 it, those of you with clearances, you can look at it, 13 but we're not going to declassify it." 14 We want to know, okay, we're going to 15 look at it and make some sort of public statement 16 about what we can say. 17 And the other step is, "Some of this is 18 declassified, and if you want to see it odds are we 19 can declassify it." That part is easy. 20 The question is, who's got the staff 21 and the time to rummage through it? 22 MR. GUTTMAN: Don't say it's easy. 23 THE CHAIR: It doesn't raise the 24 limits, the -- all right, don't say it's easy. It's 25 not easy. 1-800-435-240'8 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 522 1 MR. GUTTMAN: It's going to be, 2 raise, -- 3 THE CHAIR: Yes. 4 MR. GUTTMAN: -- raise, -- 5 THE CHAIR: Yes. 6 MR. GUTTMAN: -- it's time to rummage 7 through the boxes. 8 THE CHAIR: Yes. 9 MR. GUTTMAN: It doesn't raise certain 10 dilemmas about how we want to approach -- 11 THE CHAIR: Yes. 12 MR. GUTTMAN: Yes. Sorry about that. 13 It's going to be very difficult. 14 THE CHAIR: Yes. 15 MR. GUTTMAN: But the Green Run raises 16 the more -- 17 DR. ROYAL: But given that the Green 18 Run is our pilot study, shouldn't it be a good pilot 19 to see how much trouble we get ourselves into by 20 looking at secret documents in a limited way? 21 MR. GUTTMAN: The other strategy is to 22 have the Air Force, which apparently is the one, come 23 and explain why it is. 24 The Subcommittee, I think, should 25 probably think about this, Phil. 1-800-435-2408 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 523 1 DR. RUSSELL: Probably because it's the 2 same reason it's classified, whatever that is. 3 MR. GUTTMAN: Well, that answered that 4 question, Phil. 5 DR. RUSSELL: One possible solution is 6 to appoint the Subcommittee of the Committee, perhaps 7 including the Chair, to look at those documents and 8 answer the question for the, is, is it, in their 9 opinion, justified that the Air Force continues to 10 classify it, or is it not? And then should we -- 11 MR. GUTTMAN: A procedural suggestion. 12 It turns out that the -- 13 DR. RUSSELL: Can't be discussed with 14 us as the -- 15 MR. GUTTMAN: The area of the 16 classified is somewhat consequent to the release. 17 THE CHAIR: And we can just say that 18 there's the area. This committee loved this, but we 19 think of the intentional releases, and if other 20 people want to join it, that's fine. I seem inclined 21 to, to do that, too, I think. 22 But I think the first strategy is to 23 continue to see if we can't continue to get this 24 stuff declassified, and if we can't, then maybe a 25 subset of us can take a look at it for the same 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-8733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 524 1 reasons. 2 Henry? 3 DR. ROYAL: But we can make a stronger 4 case for declassification. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Some of us have seen it and 6 believe it: really needs to be out there. 7 DR. ROYAL: I think that really is your 8 ultimate goal, in seeing things that should be 9 declassified declassified. And having us see 10 classified documents is aiding that process, not an 11 alternative to that process. 12 THE CHAIR: I agree it's a strategist's 13 question basically about which strategy is going to 14 get the outcome faster, okay? That's good, and the 15 Committee's ratified -- great. 16 We have Interim Report to do, and the 17 strategies for the Committee as a whole as to what 18 we're going to be doing for the next month. And 19 we're conceptualizing, I guess is the word, 20 subcommittees. 21 And should we do the Interim Report, 22 Anna? Would that be better? 23 MS. MASTROIANNI: Yeah. Yeah. 24 THE CHAIR: Okay. I'm not sure how to 25 go about this. Would you explain a little bit about 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 525 1 the production process? What are the time frame, and 2 what's going to happen? 3 DISCUSSION OF INTERIM REPORT: 4 MS. MASTROIANNI: All right. All 5 right. 6 As you know, as you know, 7 the Interim Report is due October twenty-first. 8 That's a week from Friday. 9 We would like to get it finalized by 10 Friday night, or this week, so we would like, we 11 would like your comments by Friday, and I'd like to 12 get your comments now. 13 Once we see how the discussion goes, we 14 can talk about how we want to see the final copy 15 before it goes out, or still working on the, 16 appendices, okay? 17 So hopefully we can get your comments 18 right now and go from, changes as quickly as we can 19 so we can finalize them for our purposes as we fall 20 behind. 21 THE CHAIR: As, as a practical matter, 22 that means that we don't have a mechanism to 23 circulate the Revised Interim Report to everybody for 24 a final signoff before it goes. So the issue is, if 25 anyone is uncomfortable with that, we can work out a 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436--5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 526 1 crisis way to fax it to you on Friday. 2 You know, this is something that I 3 think people should feel feel free to see, to say they 4 feel they would like to see it. 5 MS. MASTROIANNI: Alternatively, we 6 could send you parts that you're interested in so 7 that you wouldn't have to review the report in its 8 entirety; you could read a section. 9 MR. GUTTMAN: A technical point. We 10 are working, too. We gave the draft of the 11 assessments to them, and we are working to make sure 12 that the substantial work that they've done, as well 13 as our advice of what has to be, is incorporated. So 14 those things are being worked out and are reflected 15 here. 16 THE CHAIR: So that is equally 17 important. Let's start with the Appendices. Does 18 anyone object to the Appendices being finalized 19 without the Committee signing off on the Appendices? 20 (Whereupon, no response was had.) 21 MS. MASTROIANNI: Great. 22 THE CHAIR: Okay. And so we go to, 23 into the core of the draft itself, and maybe we 24 should wait until after we discuss it a little bit, 25 but be thinking as we discuss it about what option 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 527 1 you'd prefer with respect to signing off on this. 2 The option would include: You don't 3 want to see it again ever in your whole life. And 4 obviously I will read it, so I can be representative 5 of the committees and in the interim reiterations. 6 So I am, I could be deputized by the 7 whole Committee to sign off on the last version 8 before it is submitted. So the one option is, you 9 all don't need to see it again after this discussion. 10 Another is, as Anne pointed out, you 11 may be interested in one section being right and want 12 to see that section before it is handed over to the 13 Administration officially, in which case we could get 14 that section to you on Friday. 15 MS. MASTROIANNI: Probably Monday 16 morning. 17 THE CHAIR: Monday morning. And you 18 would have to turn it right back, or back -- 19 MS. MASTROIANNI: Overnight. 20 THE CHAIR: This is why we have to get 21 this in your whole life. Yeah, you could get it on 22 Monday and read either the whole report, or the 23 section that's of interest on Monday. But you have 24 to return it by Tuesday. 25 So those are your options. Either you 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 528 1 don't sign it again, and I'm deputized to sign off; 2 or you want to see sections of it and you get it on 3 Monday, return it on Tuesday; or you get the whole 4 report. You get it on Monday, you return it on 5 Tuesday. 6 So that's the option. And of course, 7 for our colleagues that weren't here, we'll 8 communicate the same to them that they would have 9 this same range of options there for this draft. So 10 the people who aren't here today, Jay and Pat and Eli 11 have this same draft. 12 And their comments are supposed to be 13 waiting for staff when we get back to D.C. so they 14 can be incorporated on Friday with whatever changes 15 we make here today. So you should know that there 16 may be things introduced into the draft that you 17 would not have seen, or we would have not discussed 18 today, because they come from Eli, Pat or Jay. 19 And so that may be one reason why you 20 either do or don't want to see it on Monday. And I 21 suppose if we had a comment from the three members 22 who weren't here that actually conflicted with a 23 comment made today, or is a suggestion on a marked-up 24 copy by one of us, then you'd find a way to get 25 everybody recognized. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 529 1 Anna's good at that. Okay, with that 2 the Interim Report itself is open for discussion. 3 Oh, I should mention there's one 4 section that's being retyped. 5 MS. MASTROIANNI: Yes, it's, it was 6 this morning. I'm still working on the Table of 7 Contents. 8 The Committee's, we should pass this 9 around to you. We realize it's risky, so hopefully 10 we'll be able to circulate something to you as you. 11 are walking out the door, or we'll find a way to get 12 it to you. 13 THE CHAIR: Now, I don't know how to 14 deal with this exactly because I've got my copies 15 heavily marked up, and I don't know if other people's 16 are heavily marked up as well. 17 So there's this problem of someone, I 18 mean, if I have my way some of these sections won't 19 look like this anymore, like the last section. So 20 I'm not sure how many other people have a lot of 21 changes that they would like to see made. And I'm 22 trying to figure out how we can put this together. 23 DR. THOMAS: It seems to me you have to 24 poll us to find out whether there are any broad areas 25 that are going to require extensive discussion. And 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 530 1 then if maybe you just very quickly go through 2 page-by-page and see whether there are -- 3 THE CHAIR: That's a very good 4 suggestion. Would you say it again? 5 MR. THOMAS: Are there any broad areas 6 that are likely to cause us a lot of difficulties 7 essentially 8 THE CHAIR: Henry? 9 DR. ROYAL: I'd like to know what we're 10 going to do with Page 25. That's the boron neutron 11 experiments. 12 DR. THOMAS: That's one I had in mind, 13 and we had because we had extensive discussion with 14 others. 15 THE CHAIR: Well, I would think boron 16 neutron capture would go out for purposes of the 17 report. We can always decide, that's a proposal, 18 that boron neutron capture not show up for this 19 Interim Report. 20 We would have a footnote saying we're 21 considering this and haven't decided whether to 22 pursue it or not. And we're going to have a 23 discussion on what to do with the testicular 24 classification, and whatever we decide, the Interim 25 Report would include. 1-800-435-240'8 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 531 1 DR. THOMAS: Huh-uh. 2 THE CHAIR: No. 3 DR. THOMAS: I don't think we should 4 send a lot of time revisiting subsequent issues we 5 discussed earlier this week. But we made some 6 recommendations in that context as to how to reword 7 these various sections, so somebody needs to go back, 8 maybe Barbara or whoever it is, -- 9 THE CHAIR: And revise this section 10 pursuant to the Transcript. 11 DR. THOMAS: And revise this pursuant 12 to the Transcript now as one section that several of 13 us were interested in and may want to look at again. 14 THE CHAIR: I'm sorry if I wasn't -- 15 DR. THOMAS: This is one section that 16 needs to be looked at again by more than just you and 17 me. 18 THE CHAIR: Okay. One suggestion is, 19 this section is rewritten and this section is faxed 20 to everyone on Monday. So we want to make sure it's 21 reconciled in the discussion we'll have in a little 22 bit, if that's a final proposal. We can do that 23 rather than spend time reworking it. 24 MS. MASTROIANNI: That would be Page 25 22. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 532 1 DR. RUSSELL: Page 22 through 26. 2 THE CHAIR: Right. We might delete 3 some of the questions that people challenged, about 4 what is piggybacking and that kind of stuff. 5 And this could be, the easiest course 6 is actually to shorten this in the interest of 7 getting consensus. We could shorten it, try to 8 capture the language that was introduced. 9 Can we get the Transcript fast enough? 10 No, so we have to listen to the tapes. 11 This is being taped, and, and we can change that to 12 radioisotopes if -- 13 MS. MASTROIANNI: Dan and I will work 14 on, work, work from our notes. 15 THE CHAIR: Okay, we'll find a way to 16 get it. 17 DR. RUSSELL: One comment on this 18 section: It needs to be very neutrally stated as to 19 what we're going to look at without, it has a lot of 20 implied judgments in the way it's structured now, and 21 I believe the editorial review on taking out all the 22 judgmental implementations, and when we're going to 23 do the study, and we're going to look at all of these 24 things. 25 THE CHAIR: This is the same section. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 533 I I think we know what: you mean, and we'll present 2 this. 3 DR. RUSSELL: I have a bunch. I'll 4 give them to you. 5 THE CHAIR: That will help. If people 6 have marked up, that will help. 7 I'm sorry. Do you have a problem, 8 Nancy? 9 DR. OLEINICK: Now there was a question 10 about the piggybacking. Is that your intent, to re- 11 writing that? I mean, the questions of piggyback, 12 what is included? 13 One of the statements about government 14 purposes and becoming, you know, that, that's sort of 15 a muddy definition, and I think we ought to rewrite 16 that in terms of, "for purposes other than direct 17 diagnostic," if the -- or something like that. 18 Well, there's a question throughout 19 this. "Therapeutic benefit" is intended to mean 20 therapeutic benefit to the subject. And sometimes 21 it's for a governmental benefit versus research, and 22 it's not clear. 23 It's confused about what we're talking 24 about. My own intuition is my best, is to get the 25 language that, that may be to a, that there's, that 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436--5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 534 1 given the time frame we could -- 2 THE CHAIR: All right, other areas 3 besides this section that are substantial, 4 substantial concern? 5 DR. OLEINICK: Yeah, I'd just like to 6 raise a question on Page 26. This is, I guess, part 7 of the same section. 8 THE CHAIR: Okay. 9 DR. OLEINICK: Under the "Intentional 10 Releases," the focus of efforts will be to locate -- 11 THE CHAIR: What line are you on? 12 DR. OLEINICK: I'm on, let's see, 13 beginning on Line 14, but my concern is on Line 16 14 and 17. That is Number 2, to ensure that dose 15 reconstructions or other similar measures are being 16 taken in an appropriate manner. 17 Is that, I mean, we might say something 18 about it, but we're not going to be doing any. And I 19 think it's not clear what our role is in those 20 reconstructions. I would like to see some. 21 DR. THOMAS: I've underlined that 22 sentence as well. I don't think we have the 23 expertise to pass judgment on who best should do 24 this. I don't think it should be ourselves. 25 THE CHAIR: Their position is, that's 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 535 1 too much. 2 DR. OLEINICK: It's too much. I mean, 3 we could recommend. I don't know what we could 4 recommend. 5 THE CHAIR: It's too strong. 6 DR. OLEINICK: It's definitely too 7 strong. 8 THE CHAIR: Is the proposal that we 9 delete any recommendations? 10 DR. THOMAS: I don't know where this 11 came from. This, there were never any 12 recommendations that, that I can recall. 13 THE CHAIR: Yeah, but these are good. 14 These are more than just re-writings. Okay. 15 Other sections? And the other part of 16 your suggestion, Duncan, is that after we do this we 17 quickly go page-by-page and see if anybody with this 18 message talked about -- 19 I apologize to those of you in the 20 audience. This is horribly boring without a document 21 in front of you, so if you want to take a stretch and 22 have a cum of coffee, this is a good time. But 23 unfortunately we really have to do this. So it's a 24 draft so we can't circulate this. 25 DR. MACKLIN: I don't know because 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 536 1 we're on this section I should make this comment or I 2 should wait until I get to this page again. We're 3 right here. 4 THE CHAIR: No, go ahead. 5 DR. MACKLIN: All right. In light of 6 the ambiguity that arose when Henry made his comment 7 about whether releases could be made again today, and 8 there was some ambiguity, and then there was some 9 recoiling in surprise by others, I'm looking at Page 10 23, that whole paragraph to see whether we want to 11 phrase that sentence carefully enough so that -- 12 THE CHAIR: What line? what line are 13 you -- 14 DR. MACKLIN: Number 3. This is Line 15 17, to determine whether the releases that took place 16 in the past under the shrouds of secrecy could be 17 done today in the absence of public notice and, 18 public notices and protections. 19 When Henry said, "I don't think there's 20 anybody at this table," --. 21 How did you phrase that again? I think 22 you said, "I don't think there's anybody on this 23 Committee that thinks that such a thing could occur 24 again today." Right, Henry? 25 MR. ROYAL: Yes. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 537 1 DR. MACKLIN: And then there was some 2 surprise, and then it became clear what Henry meant 3 was what we were responding to. I don't know if we 4 have a proposal, but just as is could they be 5 conducted in an absence? 6 THE CHAIR: Why do we need the rest of 7 it? Why don't you say "today"? 8 DR. MACKLIN: Because that doesn't make 9 clear whether it means it would be ethically 10 permissible to conduct them today, or it would be 11 impermissible. 12 THE CHAIR: Well, I took it to not have 13 anything to do with ethically permissible at all, but 14 to be a question of whether or not, in fact, the 15 public policies are such the Government could do this 16 today. 17 This isn't the question of whether they 18 should be able to do it. That's the next stage of 19 our inquiry. 20 Should the Government be able to do 21 this? But right now there's this factual matter. 22 Could they? I don't know. That was, I 23 mean, that was Phil's question, challenge to Dan 24 about the EPA. 25 I don't know. I mean, I would want to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-4336-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 538 1 know whether the Government wanted to do the Green 2 Run today exactly as they did it the last time, do, 3 could they do it? And; then, then if the answer's 4 "yes," or maybe, then maybe this Committee would like 5 to say something about whether that's acceptable or 6 not. 7 DR. MACKLIN: Okay. 8 THE CHAIR: So would that be okay if we 9 stopped after the, 11 ... could be conducted today"? 10 DR. ROYAL: It's a little vague now. 11 DR. RUSSELL: It's vague and 12 indefinite. Opens the doors to all possible answers. 13 DR. MACKLIN: Yes. 14 DR. THOMAS: Most of which we won't be 15 able to live with. 16 (Whereupon, Dr. Russell and Dr. Lederer 17 conferred, out of the hearing of others, during which 18 the following occurred:) 19 THE CHAIR: I think some other people 20 want to answer to that question, too, but --. I have 21 a feeling it's a great conversation, but we can't 22 hear it. 23 DR. MACKLIN: He's thinking aloud. 24 THE CHAIR: I know. 25 Henry? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 539 1 DR. ROYAL: On Page 25, Line 19, it 2 lists a number of Isotopes, and it, it's very unclear 3 to me what the basis, what the bases are, what the 4 picking of those particular isotopes are. So if 5 staff could provide some reason for why those 6 particular isotopes are chosen, 7 THE CHAIR: Well, this is the group 8 that's now going to be called "the radioisotope 9 group." 10 DR. STEVENSON: Radioisotope groups. I 11 think it's called "major fallout products," but 12 that's not true. 13 DR. ROYAL: That's not necessarily 14 true. I don't know what definition was used to 15 describe those as major fallout products. I risk 16 showing my ignorance in public. 17 I'm not sure that beryllium is a 18 fallout product. Does anybody here know? 19 MR. ROYAL: I think that beryllium is 20 used to make the bomb, but I don't think it's really 21 a fallout product. As long as there's no one else 22 here that knows, I guess, you know, too bad. 23 DR. OLEINICK: Why don't we list just 24 the ones that we know? 25 THE CHAIR: How about if we simply say, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 540 1 and then we don't have, just so we don't look too 2 dumb, we don't have all. our staff here, so -- 3 DR. ROYAL: Some of the isotopes that 4 aren't listed seem like they should be, like iron, 5 calcium. 6 THE CHAIR: They're part of the fallout 7 products in 8 DR. STEVENSON: No, sir, but they're 9 part of the research. He wanted to get rid of the 10 fallout project. 11 THE CHAIR: Here's the premise. This 12 is now the radioisotope research group. The staff 13 has a suggestion that within that group there be a 14 concentration on work that involves -- 15 DR. STEVENSON: Fallout products. 16 THE CHAIR: -- fallout products, all 17 right, whatever. The emphasis be placed on 18 radioisotope research that involve radio isotopes 19 that were major fallout products. 20 And we don't need to say which they 21 were in the report. It doesn't say we don't look at 22 the other radio isotopes, but -- 23 DR. ROYAL: But the emphasize on 24 fallout products will not -- sure, I understand what 25 was happening with nuclear reaction is the fission 1-800-435-24':)B BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 541 1 products were also being used. I mean, it's not just 2 fall-out products. 3 THE CHAIR: Yeah, the fission 4 experiments are supposed to be covered by the 5 plutonium products that work. Okay, so why don't, 6 should we just make this simple and forget 7 everything, and just call it "radioisotope research," 8 and hammer this out later? 9 DR. ROYAL: I would be happier with no 10 list than a list that's -- 11 DR. STEVENSON: Right, that's 12 incomplete or unclear. 13 THE CHAIR: And how about, would you be 14 particularly happier with, if you looked at a list. 15 that were major radio isotope fallout if -- 16 DR. STEVENSON: Well, just say we'll. 17 include, include, but not -- 18 DR. ROYAL: Fission, fission products 19 of Cold-War products, too. Because the reason we had 20 the nuclear weapons was to produce the plutonium. 21 DR. STEVENSON: So you could include 22 fusion and fission products in fallout. 23 THE CHAIR: Yeah, this would include -- 24 DR. THOMAS: Yeah, everything you have. 25 There are two categories, maybe a large overlap of 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 542 1 fallout which raise issues of potential piggybacking 2 for the purpose, and then there were other fission 3 products which were created. 4 THE CHAIR: Combined, combined forms, 5 and possibly one or two samples of each without 6 having to provide a list. So clearly no list. 7 Conclusion: Clearly no list, and a 8 reference to fission as well as fallout products that 9 say, "we will include it," rather than say, "We will 10 focus on it." 11 Is that the sense of the group of that 12 session? Is that okay with everybody? 13 DR. ROYAL: Just a point. 14 DR. STEVENSON: Yes. 15 DR. ROYAL: Maybe for the 16 clarification, the distinction between "fallout" and 17 "fission products," the process by which fallout 18 products are created is through fission. 19 THE CHAIR: That's right. So it's 20 confused. 21 DR. ROYAL: But I'm thinking about the 22 source of the radionuclides, and there are 23 radionuclides that you can get from a reactor that 24 are not, you can't get them in fallout due to an 25 experiment. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 543 1 It's, the sources of the radionuclide 2 is actually the reactor itself, fallout. 3 THE CHAIR: Oh, boy. I think probably 4 we should have this in three sections. It's going to 5 take -- 6 DR. ROYAL: It won't, let me just write 7 something, a few words. 8 DR. STEVENSON: I think the less words 9 the better. 10 THE CHAIR: Right. Okay, that would be 11 excellent. Okay. 12 More sections that readily come to 13 mind. Section in the total-body irradiation 14 category, that's Page 23, Line 23. 15 THE CHAIR: Okay. 16 DR. STEVENSON: I would expand it to 17 total body, partial body, and local radiation, just 18 because it allows us to wind in programs somehow, 19 positive developments, and a category to get that in. 20 It also allows, if we decide, the boron neutron 21 capture subcommittee. 22 So it expands the category a tiny bit 23 and allows room for those things to come in if we 24 decide we want to bring them in. it's, it -- 25 THE CHAIR: Hands you documents that 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-@36-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 544 1 will. So we're adding total body, the title is, 2 "Total Body, Partial Body, and Local." And those are 3 all external. The 4 DR. LEDERER: Is that overlapping the 5 testicular irradiation categories? 6 DR. STEVENSON: We have to decide how 7 to do that. 8 THE CHAIR: Actually we should just 9 have the discussion now. Why don't we have the 10 discussion and finalize it, since this is an interim 11 report? 12 It's on Page 25 on A. That was our 13 Group V that we -- 14 DR. OLEINICK: We were trying to figure 15 out how to categorize this group of experiments. And 16 one of the ways it was suggested was in terms of the 17 subjects. 18 The other is that this is a normal 19 tissue. It's normal, healthy, and it, it's normal 20 tissue damage, which also brings up the issue of key 21 words and how one would search. 22 Not all tissue responses to radiation 23 is a legal investigation area, so I, it, maybe that's 24 another way this bridges this particular group, be it 25 a small group, together. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments 545 1 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. So the two 2 proposals are, we think of this as studies in which 3 normal tissue is radiated, and, or we think of it as 4 a category defined in terms of -- 5 DR. STEVENSON: Population. 6 CHAIR: -- people at increased 7 risks of exploitation, which was, I think, some 8 language to that effect that Ruth used. Is that 9 DR. MACKLIN: Well, I, I, I used that 10 to, to characterize the, the, the specific 11 experiments that were included in here. I wasn't 12 proposing that it was a category for that. That's 13 the heading of the category. 14 THE CHAIR: Okay. 15 DR. MACKLIN: But we were asking, what 16 is it that testicular radiation, flash, flash 17 blindedness, and the experiments have in common? One 18 item: that is, there are no therapeutic diagnostic 19 benefit. 20 And the second was the populations that 21 were easily or readily exploitable, and it was really 22 those two factors taken together that made this a 23 category of, of ethical concern. 24 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. Right. And we 25 just have to decide whether we want to flash, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments 546 1 highlight both, or just use one for purposes of -- 2 DR. MACKLIN: Well, I mean, the reason 3 that: both are relevant, if this is going to be a 4 category as Mary Ann suggested a moment ago, that the 5 testicular irradiation, if the, the total body 6 irradiation category were expanded to the partial or 7 particular organs, then that would all fall under 8 this. 9 THE CHAIR: Unless we said, unless, 10 unless the external irradiation with ill persons 11 verses, plus studies involving healthy persons. 12 DR. MACKLIN: But it, it's total, it's 13 if the total irradiation with ill patients was not 14 done, I mean, that was exploited because they were 15 dying patients. The fact that they were ill -- 16 THE CHAIR: But just to find, if, if, 17 if our analysis results in that finding, we can put 18 them together. We can say that, in fact, there were, 19 you know, it was no less trouble in the one category 20 than in the other. 21 But if our finding was that most of the 22 work with ill patients was substantially appropriate 23 since it offered some prospect of benefit to those 24 patients, then they would be different categories. 25 We can't know until we do the analysis. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 547 1 DR. MACKLIN: But, but notice, why do 2 we have these categories Let's go back to why do we 3 have categories at all. Let's just say, let's go 4 with the studies and proceed. Why do we list them? 5 The preceding sentences, one, two, and 6 three, it's actually one, two, and three, each group 7 raises particular ethical questions if that's not 8 true. 9 THE CHAIR: For what it's worth, I 10 intended to go back and forth on the different 11 vehicles. I don't think it's always true that each 12 group highlights necessarily different ethical 13 questions. We were going back and forth on that. 14 It's not clear to me that they ever 15 did, and I don't think we'll know until we do the 16 work. It might be more that we have the nine themes. 17 The nine themes introduce most of the 18 ethical issues of interest, and each of these groups 19 will be analyzed in terms of those nine themes. And 20 if it turns out that in the theme analysis some of 21 these groups raise exactly, or dominantly the same 22 complex of ethical issues, that would be an 23 interesting finding. 24 My view for the groups was much more, I 25 don't know quite know what the word was, a way to 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 548 1 defend why we were looking, we couldn't look at 2 everything, so it was a way to explain why we were 3 going to concentrate on some things rather than 4 others, and since we were, we were committed to look 5 at some well-publicized cases, -- 6 DR. STEVENSON: Right. 7 THE CHAIR: -- setting those 8 well-publicized cases in the context of like-minded 9 work at the time. 10 DR. STEVENSON: Right. These 11 categories are actually generalization out from the 12 specific cases. 13 THE CHAIR: Right. Exactly what are 14 the cases or the six cases that we're going to have 15 to look at in detail, anyway? Excluding the 16 releases, because we've already documented the 17 strategy on intentional-release work. 18 So outside of the intentional-release 19 work, what are the ones we're going to have to talk 20 about, anyway? Can we look at that as a mechanism, 21 those cases, since we'll have them? 22 We'll continue to invest energy and 23 staff in those. Let's find out what other work of 24 that same ilk was like at the time so I will -- 25 DR. STEVENSON: I mean, what, what one 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments 549 1 could do, sort: of going on your suggestion, is within 2 the total body/partial body local radiation group 3 you could have cancer patients versus non-, 4 non-cancer patients. They could be separate 5 categories, because in the end the type of radiation 6 is the same, but the purpose is different. 7 Or you could say, normal tissue 8 studies. But it would just be a subcategory within 9 that gray category, if that makes its easier. 10 THE CHAIR: The reason I'm troubled 11 with that is, again going back to the consideration 12 of the terms, we know about the prisoners and we also 13 know there are certain areas, the atomic veterans, 14 that we're going to have to look at that. 15 Is there a way? Both involve healthy 16 people, prisoners and soldiers in this case, but the 17 source of radiation for the soldiers is not the same. 18 So it's like -- 19 DR. STEVENSON: Oh, you mean like 20 crawling through the sand. 21 THE CHAIR: Right. Or for that matter, 22 flash blindness. You know, look up at the exposure 23 kind of thing, and seeing what happens to normal 24 tissue. It's, you know, healthy eyes presumably 25 being exposed to the radiation for whatever purpose, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 550 1 you know, whether it's the light or the radiation. 2 DR. STEVENSON: It's the light. 3 THE CHAIR: It's the light? 4 DR. STEVENSON: It's the light. 5 THE CHAIR: And it, if we could put 6 those two together and say, "It's the exposure of 7 healthy persons to a radiation source for a research 8 question," and the way they're helping people enroll 9 in these other studies, and that will emerge that 10 there are healthy people. 11 DR. STEVENSON: Well, and so in TBI 12 there were two healthy people irradiated in Chicago. 13 THE CHAIR: Yeah, right, but these 14 would be studies in which everybody's healthy, right, 15 and the reason -- so, would that work? And then if 16 there's overlap, there's overlap. 17 DR. MACKLIN: I think it works. 18 THE CHAIR: It works? 19 DR. OLEINICK: I think it works. 20 THE CHAIR: So it's, so that category 21 would be research involving the exposure of healthy 22 persons to a radiation source. 23 DR. LEDERER: Do you want to 24 distinguish it from children? 25 THE CHAIR: Well, that's, children 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments 551 1 we're all pulling out. So all the children we'll pull 2 out, and we'll submit it and see whether the 3 healthy-children stuff looked like the healthy-adult 4 stuff. 5 DR. MACKLIN: There's one more phase 6 that's relevant, and that is "with no potential for 7 therapeutic" I mean, I guess that follows that they 8 were healthy people. 9 THE CHAIR: They're healthy. There's 10 no way for them to benefit medically because they 11 don't have a benefit. They're rudimentary benefits. 12 For example, soldiers might gain from 13 the knowledge that was gained about how to better 14 protect soldiers in the future from that sort of 15 thing, but they're not going to directly benefit 16 except from an altruistic thing, which is, "I'm doing 17 this for the benefit of my country," which is 18 important, as Jon noted. 19 DR. MACKLIN: That's a motivation, and 20 I think that we need to be clearly distinguished, the 21 kinds of benefits that would come from feeling good 22 about being a research subject from the kinds of 23 direct benefits from the research itself. 24 DR. STEVENSON: That's what we've done 25 there. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 552 1 DR. MACKLIN: I mean, I think it's 2 important when we talk about general benefit not to 3 blur these things. As for an example, if -- I'm just 4 going to make sure we don't pass over it. As for 5 example, if I'm including under "benefit" payment to 6 subjects. 7 I notice in the Hopkins materials that 8 payment to subjects, -- 9 THE CHAIR: I know. 10 DR. MACKLIN: -- monetary payment is 11 included under "Benefits," and that's such a 12 different kind of -- 13 THE CHAIR: I know. 14 DR. MACKLIN: -- benefit than the 15 benefit that accrues from the research maneuver. And 16 I've actually argued a long time ago in an article 17 that I wrote -- 18 THE CHAIR: I know. 19 DR. MACKLIN: -- that it's conceptual 20 error to include payment of subjects as among the 21 benefits of the research, because you can quite 22 readily increase the benefit by increasing the 23 payment; therefore, you can very quickly increase the 24 risk/benefit ratio you have by giving a lot more 25 money and thereby -- but that's an aside. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 553 1 But I think altruism is a benefit also 2 in some sense. I mean, people can do lots of things 3 altruistically, and that can be a benefit to them. 4 But if we're looking at how does a 5 benefit/risk ratio work, I think it's very important 6 to look at a benefit that accrued from the research 7 maneuver and not from any of these ancillary benefits 8 that may accrue somewhere else. 9 THE CHAIR: Yes, I understand that. 10 And so the framework as to how to spend time needs to 11 accommodate that, the motivation and the importance 12 of seeing whether -- 13 DR. MACKLIN: Well, even if it's not a 14 motive, frankly, but turns out people feel good 15 afterwards, that's not part of the risk/benefits 16 ratio, you know. otherwise we get a lot of trouble. 17 THE CHAIR: That's important in looking 18 at the testicular tests, because they got five 19 dollars in your -- 20 DR. MACKLIN: Exactly. Moreover, that 21 might be the benefit for inducing the prisoners to 22 have the vasectomy. 23 THE CHAIR: That's right. I think we 24 car. find ways to work that through, but can we agree 25 that this Category 5 becomes, what's the right 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 554 1 language for it "Research Involving Healthy 2 Persons?" 3 DR. STEVENSON: "Healthy Subjects." 4 THE CHAIR: "Healthy Adults," because 5 the children, "Research Involving Healthy Adults," 6 and in that would go the work of soldiers, the, the 7 biomedical research, soldiers on the bomb field. And 8 we can just call it "Research." 9 We can just call it, "Research with 10 Healthy Adults." You don't want to call them 11 "healthy volunteers," because that's part of what's 12 at issue, is in what sense are they volunteers? 13 This is called "Research Involving 14 Healthy Adults," with a little note saying research 15 involving healthy children would be placed under the 16 children's category. And later we'll look at if the 17 issues are different or not. 18 And the boron neutron stuff, we'll have 19 a little footnote that's saying -- oh, that can be, 20 we don't have to do that now. It just goes out, 21 because we can say the Committee can decide with, 22 with, within the category of total body/partial body, 23 and -- 24 DR. STEVENSON: Right. Which is 25 credited by and large with ill persons. There can be 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 555 1 the healthy persons, but by and large with ill 2 persons. We can decide whether the staff invest time 3 in looking at that or not. 4 THE CHAIR: That's a very tidy way of 5 dealing with it. Tidy is good. Tidy is very good, 6 Right? Tidy's excellent. 7 Okay, we also agreed that this section 8 will come back to everybody on Monday. Yes. 9 Including the Intentional Release Report. 10 DR. THOMAS: Well, I don't think that, 11 because if we're finished with biomedical, I want to 12 revise it, the Intentional Releases inasmuch as 13 they're really scattered over three separate 14 sections, and this makes it a little difficult for 15 the reader to figure out what it is we decided to do. 16 If I can point out what the three 17 sections are, the first one is on Pages 15 and 16 18 under the heading of "Mapping," and then comes back 19 on Pages 26 and 27 under the heading of "The Phase 20 Two Focus on Specific Experiments," and their context 21 of what they're going to be doing. 22 And this section primarily addresses: 23 What are the substantive questions we're going to be 24 asking about? And then it comes up again on Pages 29 25 to 30-, 31 under the heading, "Scope of Inquires." 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 556 1 This kind of reorganization is not made 2 at this point, and I don't know what it should be. 3 MS. MASTROIANNI: Well, you know, I'm 4 just looking at the outline and trying to 5 conceptualize this. And what I'm thinking is, we 6 could have one that focuses on biomedical 7 experiments, and then another that focuses on special 8 releases in Phase I and Phase II, understanding, 9 identifying them, and then another section that looks 10 at the context, so it is having, it says, "Potential 11 release, intentional releases set aside." 12 DR. THOMAS: I might not have found it, 13 but at some place in here the reader has to come to 14 some idea as to what it is we're trying to do. 15 People reading this report are going to try to find 16 out with vets, for example, would be hard pressed to 17 find it. 18 MS. MASTROIANNI: Right. The best that 19 we did was scoping, which is B-3 and Part 1, where 20 you have to look at the Table of Contents. That's 21 where it's generally referenced. 22 DR. THOMAS: Now I'm at a loss as to 23 what we're, we're, what to suggest here. 24 THE CHAIR: Yeah. I don't know what to 25 tell you, either. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments 557 1 DR. THOMAS: And in some ways we have 2 to be -- 3 THE CHAIR: Well, the issue is: what 4 should be changed substantively? If putting aside 5 temporarily the issue of reorganization, are there 6 substantive changes that need to be made, presumably 7 predominantly, in Section 2 in the main section 8 headed, "Intentional Releases," where there's the 9 most discussion? 10 DR. THOMAS: Well, I think Section 2 is 11 on Page 26. 12 THE CHAIR: Yeah, I'm sorry. Beginning 13 there as well as -- 14 DR. THOMAS: It is the logical place at 15 which you should focus. And that needs to be 16 expanded by adding the cataloging of -- 17 MS. OLEINICK: Well, we made some 15 decisions at this meeting that, that really should 19 be, I think, incorporated. 20 DR. THOMAS: The only difference of the 21 strategy is that our decisions as to what goes into 22 this ideally should fall from the discussion. 23 THE CHAIR: Do you think some 24 discussion should go first? 25 DR. THOMAS: Maybe we should remove it 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 558 1 to earlier, possibly the very beginning, Section B. 2 THE CHAIR: So we could move the scope 3 around. 4 DR. OLEINICK: Uh-huh. 5 DR. THOMAS: So there at the very 6 beginning of this section we tried to consider what 7 all was going to go into this record, and here are 8 our, some general conclusions in that regard, and 9 then you can go to Phase 1, Phase 2. 10 THE CHAIR: Starting, starting, one is 11 starting with "Scope," and the other is putting 12 "Scope" in with "Intentional Releases," saying that, 13 that because the scope problem really was, weren't 14 too intentional, -- 15 DR. OLEINICK: Yes. 16 DR. THOMAS: So we need, we don't need 17 a separate section. 18 THE CHAIR: Right. But that would be 19 the, be, be combined. But the scope on the 20 biomedical was, he had the issue between "Innovative 21 Therapy" and "Experiment," but that's unresolved. 22 The scope, "Intentional Releases," is 23 also potentially unresolved, but at least there are 24 some real progress. Would that work? 25 DR. THOMAS: Yeah, but bear in mind 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 559 1 that perhaps there should be a "Release" paragraph at 2 the beginning of the "Biomedical", section which 3 addresses the comparable issues of scope. 4 That might be the best place to talk 5 about treatments and how this is not really 6 experimental, but, you know, have some, nevertheless, 7 some discussion. When we talk about this, when there 8 should be maybe -- 9 THE CHAIR: That's an ending. We might 10 even want to draw some parallels at the beginning, 11 saying that the core of the charge was clear in 12 scope. Some intentional releases, for example, were 13 clearly stipulated as in the charts; some biomedical 14 experiments were so straight-forward, were biomedical 15 experiments, there's no problem. 16 But for both of these categories there 17 early-on emerged that some things, there was a 18 problem. It's not clear where they fit or how they 19 fit because of conceptual problems or historical 20 issues or whatever. 21 And we can just flag that, trying to 22 give you an example, and then have the discussion 23 about scope with intentional releases in the 24 "Intentional Releases" section. 25 DR. THOMAS: Yes. 1-800-435-2463 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 560 1 THE CHAIR: Okay, does that make sense? 2 MS. MASTROIANNI: Uh-huh. 3 THE CHAIR: Okay, so now the question 4 is, the decisions that have been made this morning, 5 we're wondering how, how, for the staff's sake, how 6 to capture that: 7 DR. THOMAS: Well, the decisions you've 8 made this morning were more strategic ones, that we 9 were going to do these things first, and then receive 10 others. That isn't important for this report. 11 What does matter is we're going to give 12 priority to certain case studies such as Green Run 13 and -- 14 THE CHAIR: Right. 15 DR. OLEINICK: But it is going from the 16 very general, very broad area where we're not quite 17 sure where our mandate ends, to focusing on specific, 18 and I think I would like to see this section come 19 together that way in the end, saying how much we'll 20 be able to say about many of these events we don't 21 need, but we're going to begin with three. 22 THE CHAIR: Can we say something like 23 that? No? 24 MS. MASTROIANNI: No, we can't. 25 (Whereupon, Ms. Mastroianni and the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 561 1 Chair conferred, out of the hearing of others, after 2 which the following occurred:) 3 THE CHAIR: Discussion? Well, do, do 4 we have to tell, for example, comments that Nancy 5 made about secrecy? 6 DR. OLEINICK: Well, I think that would 7 probably -- 8 DR. THOMAS: They're well made 9 elsewhere in the report. 10 DR. OLEINICK: Yeah, we don't need 11 that. I think it's merely that the Committee is 12 going to begin by looking at Green Run, Kiwi, and 13 atomic veterans, but specifically Green Run for the 14 first test case. 15 THE CHAIR: Well, this brings up a 16 question about the kind of veterans. If the category 17 of experiments involving healthy adults now includes 18 soldiers who were experiments in relation to the 19 context, I think we've resolved this. 20 It's no longer, it's becoming, what 21 we're saying is, we're not looking at atomic vets as 22 much as we're looking at experiments that were 23 conducted in conjunction with bomb tests. 24 DR. THOMAS: Fair enough. Yes. 25 THE CHAIR: In which case they can come 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 562 1 out of "Intentional Releases" section. It will still 2 be a tough issue in some cases, what counts as an 3 experiments and what doesn't. 4 DR. THOMAS: Yeah. I accept that. I 5 don't think it was ever our intention that the 6 50,000-whatever veterans that were exposed include 7 any of that. 8 And we're going to get into that, but 9 we're doing some particular issues on focus. I mean, 10 they're still borderline cases that require close 11 observation, but they're still biomedical cases. 12 THE CHAIR: Right. But they could 13 still be handled if, under that category. And the 14 question is, how much of this is like research versus 15 like training, and/or something like that? 16 DR. THOMAS: Yes. 17 THE CHAIR: So we could take the atomic 18 vets issue basically out of the "Intentional 19 Releases," and in that category we talk about 20 research involving healthy volunteers, healthy, 21 healthy adults, saying that our, our, our, our 22 well-publicized, or our debated cases from which we 23 are screening this category include maybe prisoner 24 experiments and the experiments involving soldiers on 25 the atomic test, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 563 1 MS. MASTROIANNI: Uh-huh. 2 THE CHAIR: -- atomic testing, on the 3 atomic testing. 4 DR. THOMAS: I think that's good. 5 THE CHAIR: Okay, good. 6 DR. OLEINICK: I think that's good, 7 too. 8 THE CHAIR: Jeffrey, are you taking 9 notes, too? Good. Okay. I just want multiple, 10 multiple people taking, thinking, taking notes as 11 this was established. 12 Okay. Other sections? Or, or are we 13 ready just to skim line-by-line? Not line-by-line, 14 excuse me, page-by-page, five pages at a time or 15 whatever. This is not line-by-line? 16 (Whereupon, no response was had.) 17 THE CHAIR: Shall we just flip it 18 page-by-page, and if you've got an editing change, or 19 if you think it's more than an editing change, -- 20 DR. MACKLIN: I want to ask a question 21 about an overall change. Someone handed in a page 22 that has, there's been a systematic confusion between 23 "ensure" and "assure." To assure someone of 24 something is different from ensuring that something 25 will take place. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 564 1 And I think those things are 2 interchanged in the way that "assure" is used often 3 when "ensure" is, is meant. So let me just make that 4 as a comment I've seen so I don't have to hand in 5 little pieces of paper and circle that. 6 THE CHAIR: Thank God for the 7 Word-Check function. 8 DR. OLEINICK: Is the final draft going 9 to be professionally edited, and -- 10 MS. MASTROIANNI: Yes, it is. 11 DR. OLEINICK: -- so we don't have to 12 make changes with typos and stuff? 13 THE CHAIR: Another one of those is 14 that "data" is often singular instead of plural. 15 "Data" is -- 16 DR. MACKLIN: "Sometimes" which is 17 used. That's getting sort of far. 18 DR. ROYAL: There are rules for these 19 things. 20 DR. MACKLIN: This is over a weekend, 21 so -- 22 DR. RUSSELL: Some of it shows. 23 THE CHAIR: Well, shall we just -- let 24 me draw your attention to Page 7, Footnote S. 25 DR. RUSSELL: That's a problem. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 565 1 CHAIR: Let us make sure that 2 everyone is more comfortable with the text there. 3 I'm going to just write that everybody's in 4 agreement. 5 DR. THOMAS: I thank Footnote 5 seems 6 to be maybe a comment of mine as well, but this issue 7 of risks and benefits was important, and I picked the 8 underlined sentence, "It is not the Committee's 9 charge to think beyond present radiation standards." 10 That's the statement that's on the 11 books. We don't have the expertise to go beyond 12 that, but since it is such an important point, it's 13 made in the footnote that it's, perhaps ought to be 14 dignified by moving it up into, in, in, in the main 15 body of it. 16 In my view, the key point to be made 17 here is that we will have to pass judgment on the 18 risk side of the risk/benefit tradeoff, and that will 19 involve what we have, either in risks or actual, in 20 regard to work that was done in risk materials, and 21 that's something that we're going to try to address 22 to the best of our ability, given the limitations of 23 the expertise of the Committee and, and the 24 limitations of basic data that's available to us. 25 And perhaps also address the involving 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 566 1 state of the college, that there's no point in 2 judging the experiments on the basis of today's 3 assignment in a college. Somebody made the comment 4 that plutonium should -- 5 THE CHAIR: Right. 6 DR. THOMAS: If we knew then what we 7 know now -- 8 THE CHAIR: Right. 9 DR. THOMAS: -- we wouldn't have had to 10 do this experiment. 11 THE CHAIR: Right. So that all becomes 12 very important. 13 Ruth? 14 DR. MACKLIN: I just want to second 15 Duncan's comments, observation that this should be 16 moved up into the general text. And that's a general 17 comment, I think. Whenever possible things like 18 substantive footnotes all, all should be put into the 19 text. 20 Let me just point out one sentence that 21 has to be read three times in order to understand it. 22 I think if this sentence remains, it should be 23 recast, the sentence in that footnote that begins 24 with the words, "By the same token, ...If 25 "By the same token, it is not the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 567 1 Committee's view that [contemporary,] contemporaneous 2 accepted practices are risk free and can have no 3 health effect." 4 Because of that negative, what does the 5 Committee's view, this is not the Committee's view, 6 so just recast the sentence to say that the Committee 7 agrees, for example, that, and just make it clear. 8 THE CHAIR: Right. Yes. Right. All 9 right. We can do that. Are the -- 10 DR. RUSSELL: For example, it's in the 11 next-to-the-last sentence, where it says, "For 12 example, those aren't examples of the proceedings." 13 THE CHAIR: Yeah. Appropriate. 14 DR. RUSSELL: Yeah, appropriate, which 15 would be considered not really examples of risk 16 assessment. 17 THE CHAIR: Right. 18 DR. MASTROIANNI: Right. 19 DR. MACKLIN: No, but it is an example 20 of whether risk, however low, was justified. 21 THE CHAIR: Was justified. 22 DR. MACKLIN: Namely, were subjects 23 informed of the risk? Even if it was very low, that 24 doesn't obviate the need for informed consent. So I 25 think it is an example of that. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 568 1 THE CHAIR: Yeah, it is an example of 2 that. 3 DR. RUSSELL: But whether the examples 4 were informed is an English issue; it isn't a 5 substantive issue. I'll leave the rest for the 6 others. 7 THE CHAIR: But everyone is in 8 agreement with that, and that it ought to be changed, 9 and -- All right. Let's keep going. 10 If you look at the, next to Page 9 and 11 10, that's what's being replaced by the document, the 12 draft that's being retyped now. So you were -- 13 (Whereupon, Mr. Guttman and the Chair 14 conferred out of hearing of others, after which the 15 following occurred:) 16 THE CHAIR: Dan, we have struggles 17 about all kinds of things, like how many metaphors 18 per paragraph are permitted. 19 MR. GUTTMAN: Anne promised me one 20 metaphor, and she took out all of them. 21 DR. RUSSELL: You're taking all the fun 22 out of reading this. 23 MR. GUTTMAN: I'll say. She said Ruth 24 won't permit them. 25 THE CHAIR: I think one of the things 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 569 1 we can do is send you, on Monday we'll send you the 2 text that replaces what is on Page 9, 10, Page 9 and 3 10. That's what's being typed. 4 Dan drafted it. Anna and I worked on 5 it, and that's what's being put together. And Jeff 6 worked on it. So, Jeff, Anna, and I worked on the 7 text that's basically Dan's, and we will get -- 8 MR. GUTTMAN: Yes, and I disclaim all 9 responsibilities. 10 THE CHAIR: Yeah, but get to look at it 11 again before it goes out, and then we'll send it to 12 you on Monday with that other section. 13 Okay, keeping going, we have already 14 discussed, if there's anything as we keep going, we 15 will shortly hit the section that we spent so much 16 time on. 17 (Whereupon, Ms. Mastroianni and the 15 Chair conferred, out of hearing of others, after 19 which the following occurred:) 20 THE CHAIR: All right. Now we're into 21 the section, Page 22 through, especially where, where 22 we've already discussed. There will be a major 23 revision. 24 Is there anything before Page 22 that 25 anybody wants to discuss? 1-830-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 570 1 DR. THOMAS: Be Page 18, bottom 2 paragraph, the Lines 17 through 19, are we trying to 3 say that there was no extramural HH test policy here, 4 or -- I mean, is that the implication Is the 5 implication there, I guess, that: there were no 6 intramural policies? 7 THE CHAIR: We can add another. The 8 intramural goes in in '63, and the extramural doesn't 9 come in for, until almost a decade later. Almost, or 10 maybe it is a full decade. It would be almost a full 11 decade. 12 We can put that in. All right. So 13 we're going to add a line on the extramural there. 14 Good. 15 Any other comments before the -- then 16 we're up to -- before Page 22? Then from Page 22 17 through 27 we're going to get revised text on Monday. 18 So now we're up to the institutional 19 case studies. We could now revise this in light of 20 the Committee's having landed on two. 21 So we can, do people need to see that 22 again, or is that just a straight-forward thing that 23 we're just going to say, "Here. We've landed on UCSF 24 and Oak Ridge"? 25 We might as well make this as 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 571 1 up-to-date as we can. But you all don't feel a need 2 to see that again? 3 (Whereupon, no response was had.) 4 THE CHAIR: Okay, we can do that. 5 What about in "Scope"? We discussed 6 where that's going to be, Page 29. We discussed how 7 that's going to be reconceptualized. It's going to 8 be part of "Intentional Releases." 9 In other words, we're going to have an 10 intrascope that talks about the, there are issues 11 that discuss what is an innovative therapy, and under 12 "Intentional Releases," all kinds of intentional 13 releases. If you understand our charge, and then 14 this, which is entirely the intentional releases, 15 will go in that "Intentional Releases" section. 16 Okay, the atomic vet stuff. 17 DR. MACKLIN: What, what page? 18 THE CHAIR: Oh, I'm sorry. We're on 19 29. 20 DR. MACKLIN: Oh, okay. 21 THE CHAIR: And the atomic vet stuff 22 we've now made a part of the biomedical story, which 23 is fine. 24 Okay, any comments on the contemporary 25 discussion other than Ruth? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 572 1 DR. MACKLIN: Well, I just want to urge 2 again that the material that currently appears in 3 Footnote 12 on Page 30 be put up into the text. That 4 is, I don't exactly see a rationale for putting some 5 things in footnotes, and here's an example. 6 Okay. 7 DR. MACKLIN: I mean, as long as it's 8 specific what the areas of inquiry are, it should be 9 in the text, on the theory that sometimes people 10 don't read footnotes because they think that's a less 11 important point. But there should be some reason for 12 saying this is footnote material and that's text. 13 THE CHAIR: Right. Any major -- that's 14 great. Any major important editing changes for the 15 section on the contemporary story, which is Pages 31 16 through 35, basically? 17 Okay, then we've got the -- 18 DR. MACKLIN: Is there -- 19 THE CHAIR: I'm sorry. 20 DR. MACKLIN: I mean, we had a 21 discussion about why oncology and the -- 22 THE CHAIR: This should be updated. 23 DR. MACKLIN: -- question about 24 criticizing, picking on -- 25 THE CHAIR: Right. It needs to be 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments 573 1 undated. 2 DR. STEVENSON: This needs to be 3 updated in light of the -- 4 THE CHAIR: Right. In light of the 5 Tuesday discussions, we need to undate this in light 6 of oncology and cardiology and the community 7 hospitals. So we have to update that. Thank you. I 8 forgot about that. 9 We can probably get Jeremy to do that 10 very quickly. Jeremy's not here? 11 Jeff will do it. Jeff will do it. I 12 forgot about that. Boy, this is really going to be 13 an up-to-date Interim Report. 14 Down to the deliberations of the sixth 15 meeting of the Committee. Pretty, pretty cool here. 16 All right, anything on the Agency 17 Search Process? There will be, as we already 18 mentioned, appendices describing in more detail 19 what's happened on each of these agencies, but we've 20 already signed off on letting the staff do that 21 without our needing to look at it again. 22 DR. MACKLIN: Well, we've actually -- 23 Excuse me, Ruth. We did make some changes. I'm just 24 going back to Page 34 and the Research Proposal 25 Project. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 574 1 THE CHAIR: Yeah, that has to be 2 changed, too. Good point. 3 MR. MACKLIN: The decision we made that 4 is not only the starts until '93. 5 THE CHAIR: That's right. All of that 6 stuff, and the fact that we're going to get proposals 7 from the -- 8 DR. MACKLIN: Well, I think that part's 9 in here. 10 THE CHAIR: But not the part that we're 11 going to expand. 12 DR. STEVENSON: And do the quota 13 sampling. 14 THE CHAIR: Right, do the quota 15 sampling. So that needs to be updated. 16 Lois? 17 MS. NORRIS: I'm going to suggest that 18 we refer it to protocols versus proposals, and I find 19 there's still some discrepancies. 20 THE CHAIR: Actually, Jeff, I'm 21 realizing Sara's here, and Sara can help with 22 revising that section. And she's here in San 23 Francisco. Sara can help with revising that section. 24 Okay, Agency Search Process, that's 25 Section 36 through 44, basically (sic). Okay, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 575 1 Additional Methods of the Inquiry, that's the Section 2 44 through 47. is that pretty much okay? 3 DR. RUSSELL: Outreach. 4 THE CHAIR: Outreach? We're moving 5 right on. 6 Thank you. 7 Outreach. That moves on then. There's 8 a part called, "Taking Stock." I'm sorry, any point? 9 Yes, Duncan, where are you? 10 DR. THOMAS: Page 49. I don't object 11 to anything here. I just want to take note of 12 something that's going on that I haven't heard about 13 before. 14 Page 7, I mean, Line 7, Committee's to 15 have sample of core density, and then Footnote 22, 16 DOE has sent letters to sample callers identified by 17 Committee. Sample focused on individuals who have 18 some, purely have some -- 19 THE CHAIR: And the Committee addressed 20 them, I'm told. Here we have these, so -- 21 MR. GUTTMAN: Your question originally 22 in the written comment was, "What was the basis for 23 the sample?" Duncan, and I cannot answer it if, in 24 the technical basis. Twenty-thousand were redacted. 25 The ones that sounded like they were useful we asked 1-300-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 576 1 DOE to contact. That's the basis. 2 THE CHAIR: The previous pattern being 3 that we, they have to contact the caller and ask the 4 caller if it's okay for us to have their name. 5 MR. GUTTMAN: Yeah, if any committee 6 member wants to look at the sample, some of them are 7 quite interesting. 8 DR. THOMAS: Any way of knowing -- but 9 the topic is for future discussion. 10 THE CHAIR: I actually didn't know this 11 was happening until after it was happening, either. 12 But it's a good thing. We should encourage the 13 initiative. 14 DR. MACKLIN: I think that's an issue 15 we should discuss. 16 THE CHAIR: That's, we are trying to 17 obtain it, and then we never gave it -- okay, "Taking 18 Stock in the Observations." I think the blank page 19 is really impressive. 20 DR. ROYAL: Before we got to that, the 21 information, there's a lot of good material from, 22 from previous, about the archives that were going to 23 be, but it seems to have been -- 24 MS. MASTROIANNI: No, it has not. 25 Actually it's been completely transferred into an 1-800-435-2.463 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 577 1 Appendix. Do you feel strongly it needs to be 2 brought up into that entire section? 3 DR. THOMAS: Some of us feel that 4 perhaps -- 5 THE CHAIR: I think maybe what needs to 6 be in here is just a strong statement saying, "That's 7 our legacy," and all that technical stuff, maybe in 8 moving all that technical stuff out to an Appendix we 9 lost this message, which is we have a great archival 10 message, and we -- 11 MR. GUTTMAN: As soon as we hit the 12 word "Internet," Ruth said, "Put it in an Appendix." 13 THE CHAIR: That's right. I found out 14 one of my really good colleagues still doesn't work 15 on a computer, so I feel better. We're all on 16 different points on the electronic train. 17 Okay, "Take Stock." The, some initial 18 observations? There is a footnote on Page 53 which, 19 in line with Ruth's suggestion, presumably ought to 20 be brought up, if everyone is comfortable with it, 21 because it is new. 22 So maybe everybody first attend to it, 23 because it is new material over what you got last 24 time. And if everyone is comfortable with it, -- 25 Let me just remind everybody, we're not 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 578 1 taking a break, but there's coffee behind the screen, 2 and why, I don't know, but hidden behind the screen, 3 which was never used, and there's coffee back there, 4 coffee and tea. 5 Is the footnote on Page 53 okay? And 6 then -- 7 DR. MACKLIN: Are you suggesting that I 8 suggest that we move it up? 9 THE CHAIR: First is, because it's new, 10 is the text acceptable? If the text is acceptable, 11 we'll follow this general suggestion and move it into 12 the text. 13 MR. GUTTMAN: Ruth doesn't appreciate 14 the lawyers always read text. 15 DR. MACKLIN: Well, that is the 16 distinction between content footnotes and reference 17 footnotes, not mine, but in other people's writing. 18 And I'm, I guess, proposing that the content 19 footnotes, which is mostly what's here, be brought up 20 into the text. 21 MR. GUTTMAN: Yes. Well, Ken and Anna 22 and I will do a lawyer's edition. 23 THE CHAIR: Okay, so -- 24 MR. FEINBERG: He who laughs -- 25 MR. GUTTMAN: Yeah, whatever the phrase 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 579 1 Ruth used yesterday, we'll stick it in. 2 THE CHAIR: on the work to be done, 3 Pages 60, 61, and 062, that's the section that I've 4 marked up a lot. And maybe the fastest thing is, 5 it's very short and it will still be short. 6 And we'll sign that on Monday. 7 Everybody, if anybody has any suggestions now, or 8 things they would like to see changed on 60, 61, and 9 62, this, we should hear that. 10 And I'll inspire it with the changes 11 that I've made on this, but, so let's start with 12 that. But this will be the final version. 13 It, their, their content isn't much 14 different in the version that I did, but the editing, 15 the writing is a little different. 16 DR. MACKLIN: I, I would just, because 17 of the ambiguity involved in this word "standards," 18 which I tried to note yesterday, in, on Page 61, out, 19 Line 2, where it says, "The Committee will begin to 20 turn towards analyzing texts establishing the 21 standards," I'd say "criteria," because whatever 22 we're doing -- 23 THE CHAIR: Fine. 24 DR. MACKLIN: -- we're going to use 25 some criteria for others, and those criteria may or 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 580 1 may not be standards. 2 THE CHAIR: And I'll do a check and 3 we'll just do "criteria" throughout. 4 DR. MACKLIN: What I'm saying is, we 5 may want to use "standards" in a different context, 6 but in this case I think "criteria" would be better. 7 THE CHAIR: I'm identifying the tasks 8 of "criteria" as a task, as an ethical, not as an 9 ethical but rather -- 10 DR. MACKLIN: Just "task." 11 THE CHAIR: Just "task." 12 DR. THOMAS: Well, I notice that we 13 were trying to identify standards and trying to 14 collect some data, but I don't see any reason here 15 that we're going to do the analysis. 16 THE CHAIR: Okay. That's changed. 17 That's part of what I tried to get in there, but I 18 don't think, yes, that's right, that we're going to 19 do anything with it, that we're going to use those 20 kind of criteria for making any judgments. 21 DR. THOMAS: Okay. 22 THE CHAIR: Other suggestion or 23 comments on this section? So what we'll, everybody 24 will receive on Monday, then, the "Tasks and 25 Strategies" that you have not seen at all because 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 581 1 it's completely revised; a revision of Pages 22 to 2 36, and a revision of Pages, "Work to be Done," 60 3 through 63. 4 You'll get it on Monday, and we want 5 you to return it on Tuesday. There will be other 6 editing changes, obviously, throughout the document, 7 but that will be fine. 8 And unless, with everyone asking for 9 affirmation, and we get very, if we get what staff 10 judges to be substantive changes from Eli, Pat, or 11 Jay, we will try to find a way to poll everybody. 12 Other than that we'll give staff 13 discretion about what to do with comments from our 14 colleagues. If you think that there's something 15 coming out from them that really deviates, because 16 I'm looking it over, and Anna, now deviates from the 17 hours of discussion and decisions we have made today, 18 then you have to let the rest of us know. If not, 19 you're free to incorporate their changes or comments. 20 Guess what we're going to do on the 21 airplane? Anna and I and Phil fly on the same 22 flight, too, so you might be able to get your stuff 23 early. You might be able to get your stuff early. 24 MS. MASTROIANNI: You may not want to 25 say that. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 582 1 THE CHAIR: Okay. With that, can we go 2 to the, the remaining agenda item, which is, how do 3 we want to organize our work for the next month and 4 maybe for the next couple of months? 5 And I think here there are a couple of 6 issues. One is a subcommittee and what we want to, I 7 don't know if you want to call them so much 8 "subcommittees," but they're little working groups 9 that we need to find mechanisms. 10 Henry, if you want to state your 11 concern, or should I restate it for you? 12 DR. ROYAL: Why don't you restate it 13 for me? 14 THE CHAIR: This will be a test in 15 communication: The concern that it is just too 16 difficult for us to show up with a day's preparation, 17 with maybe a night to read something as complex as 18 the plutonium story and come in prepared and have an 19 accurate version of the form to debate, it, that we 20 need, as a group, to be working these kinds of things 21 more during the rest of the time so that the 22 discussion, when we have it all together, is as 23 sophisticated and as rich as, you know, it could be. 24 So the strategy is how to do that. We 25 don't have anyplace to write. 1-800-435-2408 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 583 1 Okay, we have, I hesitate because it 2 sounds like we have a hundred thousand subcommittees 3 hear, but I wonder if you might want to consider 4 within the subcommittees these working groups and 5 have them work with staff. 6 But the point is, I think we need to 7 break down into different little groups, each of 8 yourselves, and we'll all be in more than one group, 9 obviously working with the staff in the interim 10 so that if we do, for example, the Green Run on, at 11 some substantial amount of time, discussing the Green 12 Run in November or December or as quickly as we can 13 put it together, that at least some of the staff, 14 maybe that's just the initial use of a subcommittee, 15 maybe it's more, some of the committee, excuse me 16 will, which have given a lot of thought. And 17 obviously the document will not come to do that. 18 But, anyway, the following 19 subcommittees, it seems to me, have to continue: the 20 Remedy Subcommittee wherein now kicks into high gear, 21 it continues. 22 The Intentional Releases Subcommittee 23 is still very active. outreach is with us for the 24 life of the Committee. Oral History Subcommittee 25 continues. Subject Interviews Subcommittee clearly 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 584 1 continues, and Research Proposal Review Group 2 continues. 3 We now have this new organization for 4 the biomedical groups. It's all sort of all 5 transmuted around these well-publicized cases, so we 6 now have five categories: biodistribution; the 7 external radiation with ill people; children; radio 8 isotopes; and at the, well, whatever source of 9 radiation with healthy persons. Okay? 10 We then have two institutional case 11 studies, UCSF and Oak Ridge. And I think it would be 12 very helpful for these five groups, where people are 13 going to be, where the staff is going to be both fact 14 gathering and ethical analysis, to have identified 15 some subset of committee members to work with them on 16 it. 17 And in addition, I want to, to use 18 Ruth's suggestion, revisit the question of whether we 19 need a (sic) Ethical Criteria committee, Subcommittee 20 that kind of parallels the Remedies Subcommittee that 21 is not in the business of working in the particular 22 case material, but is developing general material for 23 the Committee's discussion and ultimate chapter on 24 ethical criteria which would be passed. 25 So, if I write these new ones on the 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 585 1 think this, and these are proposals that, 2 whether we call them subcommittees or not, who wants 3 to work on these between now and the next 4 couple of months? 5 So it's okay for the ethical criteria 6 itself, UCSF/Bay Area, these two are institutional 7 subcommittees. And is the total body/partial body, 8 is that all external radiation? 9 DR. STEVENSON: And local. 10 THE CHAIR: And local. But that's all 11 external radiation, correct? 12 DR. STEVENSON: Yes. 13 THE CHAIR: Okay, predominantly but not 14 exclusively patients. 15 And then we've got research with 16 healthy adults, children, and biodistribution. 17 Now, one of the things that I hope 18 staff can do between now and next month is work 19 out -- we've talked a little bit about this -- a time 20 table over the next four or five months when each of 21 these can be ready for full Committee discussion. 22 That would have been helpful to have 23 today in terms of people's deciding which ones they 24 want to work on, but we're not at that time yet. I 25 mean, obviously we're going to have to stagger our 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 586 1 committee discussions of -- this is going to be 2 ongoing. 3 This is sort of up there, let me 4 interrupt myself, with the Remedies Committees, so 5 this will be going acting on. But these, the, the 6 discussions about each of these will be staggered 7 over the course of the next four meetings or so. 8 And staff's got to sit down and figure 9 out which ones of these they can produce most, you 10 know, by which kind of thing, and that I can't tell 11 you yet, so you're lining up here. I can't tell you 12 whether this one's going to be at the November 13 meeting and this one's going to be at the January 14 meeting. We're not willing to do that. 15 MS. MASTROIANNI: No, it's hard to 16 actually define a line. 17 THE CHAIR: I don't know. I mean, so 18 that's, but if people started to think about where 19 they're -- now remember, while all of this is going 20 on we've all volunteered to do reviews of the 21 Contemporary Research proposals, so everybody's on 22 that committee, right? 23 Everybody's signed on to do X number of 24 modern ones. So while you're figuring out your 25 life -- 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 587 1 DR. ROYAL: What life? 2 THE CHAIR: What life? All right. 3 Well, does this seem like an okay idea? I mean, the 4 need to sort: of divide around these things so staff 5 know who to work with? 6 Duncan. 7 DR. THOMAS: Yeah. I'm a little 8 puzzled as to where we should fit in the intentional 9 releases. It's, I think, questions I just, that 10 could be either in this Committee or in the 11 Intentional Releases Committee. 12 I would kind of prefer to see it done 13 here because I'd like to, to see consideration by all 14 the emphasis on the Committee. 15 DR. MACKLIN: Well, because some of the 16 issues that are, that come up in the Intentional 17 criteria for evaluation, Intentional Releases are so 18 different from those in the biomedical arena. 19 I think it would be good for the 20 Intentional Release Subcommittee, which has already 21 plunged into that area, to begin that task and then 22 have an overlap later on. 23 DR. THOMAS: That sounds good. 24 THE CHAIR: Uh-huh. 25 DR. MACKLIN: And since I'm on, going 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 588 1 to volunteer for that one already on Intentional 2 Release, I WILL try to figure out whether this, which 3 would be a good time to have an overlap. 4 THE CHAIR: All right. We should have 5 just had one, so I just took it, Ruthie. 6 Okay, Henry? 7 DR. ROYAL: It would be nice if, at 8 some regular interval, each of these groups could 9 circulate with all of the Committee members something 10 that said, "Action items," so that we had some idea 11 of what it was that each of these different groups 12 were working on so that if there was a particular 13 item that we had an interest in we wouldn't 14 necessarily have to, you know, sign up for all of 15 these things just to make sure that we didn't miss 16 something of interest. 17 We would be able to rely on this 18 mailing once a week about what each of these groups 19 are currently working on so that if they are working 20 on a document that we were interested in we could 21 say, "Would you please send us that document?" 22 MS. MASTROIANNI: That's a good idea. 23 I have a timing issue, because we generally have 24 about two weeks to turn around because there's 25 usually one subcommittee meeting in between, and 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 589 1 generally we're talking about two weeks after the 2 meeting, and they have to turn something around in 3 the week to get all approved. So you may suggest 4 about how to deal with that. 5 DR. ROYAL: Yeah, this was sort of a 6 general procedural issue about how the staff and the 7 Committee work together. 8 THE CHAIR: You know, it may be that 9 each, if the, the Committee hasn't done anything with 10 respect to that, that the staff could just give, you 11 know, what's happening in this area, what's, what's 12 the activity. Is that sort of -- 13 DR. ROYAL: Yes. 14 THE CHAIR: It doesn't have to be a 15 report that's been approved by the working 16 Subcommittee, but just sort of, "Here's what we're 17 doing right now." 18 MS. MASTROIANNI: Unless you -- 19 DR. ROYAL: And in light of the 20 Chairperson's aversion to computers, -- 21 THE CHAIR: I don't have an aversion to 22 computers; just to the Internet. 23 DR. ROYAL: -- maybe it would be 24 possible for -- 25 (whereupon, the Chair and Dr. Oleinick 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 590 1 conferred, out of the hearing of others, during which 2 the following occurred:) 3 DR. ROYAL: -- some of the committee 4 members who wanted to to be able ta access the 5 computer at the -- 6 MR. MASTROIANNI: That would be fine. 7 DR. ROYAL: And you'd have the new 8 documents in some section that we could look at 9 through either the lawyers, notes or Internet. 10 MS. MASTROIANNI: That's okay. We don't 11 have Internet data yet. We have Internet, but we 12 don't have, so I can get you connected so that your 13 database is in our database. 14 DR. ROYAL: And I think that will work 15 with both McIntosh and IBM. 16 THE CHAIR: We can look at that, 17 Duncan. 18 DR. THOMAS: In an ideal world that 19 would be the way we would communicate, but I think 20 there are enough members in the Committee that feel 21 uncomfortable with working in that environment that 22 that limits it. But I had all the software at our 23 last meeting, but I haven't put in the software. 24 THE CHAIR: Well, you know, I think 25 this is something we can work on. And the issue is 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 591 1 that we need to figure out some creative way so that 2 people can be alerted as to what is going on short of 3 once a month so that if you find that you're, you 4 want to contribute something or you want to respond 5 or react to something, you have an opportunity to do 6 that at some earlier point. 7 I don't know how successful we can be 8 at it, but we can struggle to find some mechanism. 9 MS. MASTROIANNI: Maybe one thing we 10 can do is send out what we believe to be the Table of 11 Contents, for example, to get a sense of what kinds 12 of things will show up and what you feel is important 13 in each of these. 14 That's what we generally do, is send 15 that out so you can figure out what's coming next. 16 Would that be helpful? 17 DR. ROYAL: Well, I really want more 18 than that. 1, I, I find that in terms of what we 19 want to talk to the group about, -- 20 MS. MASTROIANNI: Right. 21 DR. ROYAL: -- we don't have an 22 opportunity to hear what other committee members' 23 thoughts are as that, as we're evaluating something 24 like the, the infections except for that hour and 25 a-half that we sit at this table and discuss it. 1-800-4355-2463 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 592 1 I personally can't process the type, 2 the text material and the comments that everyone is 3 making around the room in the short period of time 4 that we're allowing, and what I'd like to see is a 5 more innovative process. 6 CHAIR: Well, here, I mean, what we 7 can do is, at the very least, assure that a document 8 like that plutonium one is distributed earlier. It's 9 very hard to do. 10 I mean, we're going to have to plan 11 rationally, too, so that people can respond to that 12 and say, someone could say, "I don't understand that 13 point," and someone would say, "That's So-and-so's 14 point. Go call her up." 15 DR. ROYAL: How many people on the 16 Committee have E-mail capabilities? Who doesn't 17 have? 18 (Whereupon, a response was had.) 19 THE CHAIR: And I don't think Pat uses 20 the E-mail, and I don't think Jay does. 21 DR. ROYAL: Well, if only two parties 22 don't have E-mail, why couldn't somebody Xerox that 23 and send it to Pat and send it to Lois, and -- 24 MS. MASTROIANNI: We have internal 25 E-mail. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 593 1 DR. ROYAL: I'll send you Xerox copies. 2 DR. MACKLIN: Well, what you can do is 3 print out the E-mail, fax it to the staff, and they 4 can fax it to the people who don't have E-mail. 5 MS. MASTROIANNI: We'll work on this. 6 THE CHAIR: We'll work on this. Okay. 7 I mean, we'll, we'll figure out some way. 8 MS. MASTROIANNI: The problem is 9 representation. 10 THE CHAIR: I'm not sure exactly, some 11 combination E-, of, of E-mail and hard copy. 12 DR. ROYAL: I'd like to get something 13 every day. 14 THE CHAIR: Every day? That's 15 ridiculous. 16 DR. ROYAL: Well, I think if the 17 Committee is actively discussing these issues, -- 18 DR. THOMAS: I actually think that 19 Committee members have to be more active in finding 20 out what's going on in their particular areas of 21 interest. At least in any case this works pretty 22 well for the member until I went on vacation and got 23 snowed when I came back. Up to that point I was on 24 the phone every day, basically, to -- 25 THE CHAIR: Somebody. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 594 1 DR. THOMAS: -- half a dozen members. 2 THE CHAIR: And that's an interesting 3 way of turning it around, too. I think the burden 4 shouldn't only be on the staff to make sure that you 5 know what you are doing, but we need to tell the 6 staff, "These are the things I'm interested in, and I 7 need to know when stuff is happening in those areas." 8 And that would help a lot. "And I'm 9 interested in X, Y, and Z," sort of, "so regardless 10 of when X, Y, and Z issues come up, regardless of 11 whether it's a committee I'm on, please copy me, 12 whether it's E-mail, hard copy, or whatever." 13 And for people who want to end up being 14 copied on everything, you'll get something every day. 15 Because if your interests are extensive enough, 16 you'll probably get something every day depending on 17 your interests. 18 For somebody who's only wanting to zero 19 in on, on two or three points, you'd get less. How 20 would that work? 21 DR. ROYAL: That's what I'm hoping for. 22 THE CHAIR: So if you could let, so the 23 burden's on us to, beyond the ones you sign up for, 24 say, "In addition to the ones I'm on, if key issues 25 come up, clue me in." And if two months later you, 1-800-435-24068 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Radiation Experiments/SF 595 1 you say, "Stop sending me stuff on X. I'm no longer 2 interested in it," or, "I'm more interested in Y. 3 Put Request Y on the list," we'll take it off this. 4 Would that be -- 5 DR. ROYAL: Yes, at the moment my 6 feeling is you could out me on for everything and 7 when I start getting stuff I don't want -- 8 THE CHAIR: Fine, don't want. 9 DR. ROYAL: I'll tell you and say, 10 "Don't send me any more." 11 THE CHAIR: Right. And rather than to 12 put everybody on the spot to match Henry's 13 commitment, -- 14 MR. GUTTMAN: That doesn't mean Henry's 15 going to help you on DOE. 16 DR. ROYAL: I'm not necessarily going 17 to be involved. 18 THE CHAIR: Just want to know what's 19 going on. 20 DR. ROYAL: I just want to know what's 21 going on. 22 THE CHAIR: Okay, fair enough. And if 23 at some point you don't -- 24 DR. MACKLIN: Let me ask you a question 25 again. 1 don't have, and I know other people are, 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 596 1 and I don't have that, I know E-mail was collected 2 and sent to Committee members at one point. 3 THE CHAIR: Yeah. 4 DR. OLEINICK: While we're on that, I 5 may have at home but I just have lost reams of paper 6 already, and I would like to have al of the phone 7 numbers of all of the staff on a list. I probably 8 have it somewhere. 9 MS. MASTROIANNI: The direct-dial 10 numbers? 11 DR. OLEINICK: The direct-dial numbers, 12 because it came up when I was trying to reach Dan and 13 -- 14 THE CHAIR: That's also important on 15 the weekends with, unfortunately, a lot of our staff 16 work, and there's no switchboard. The avenue of this 17 is, we don't have the timing and we don't know. 18 I don't think staff, if you're on the 19 Oak Ridge thing, will come to you for certain 20 strategies. It will be when it comes to assimilating 21 the, or interpreting, or if there are tough research 22 problems, that's when staff will be wanting to work 23 with Committee the most. And since I can't tell you 24 when this will happen, I can't tell you how to do 25 this. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 597 1 But who would like to be involved in 2 the Bay Area? Okay, Susan and Mary Ann. This 3 doesn't have to be lots of people in each category. 4 Again, it's because there's so many of 5 these. Which are the, how about with respect to Oak 6 Ridge? Nancy and Phil. Did I miss anybody on Oak 7 Ridge? And Susan. 8 External Radiation with Patients. 9 DR. STEVENSON: And probably Eli. 10 THE CHAIR: Yeah. Should I just assume 11 and put Eli on, too? 12 DR. STEVENSON: Yeah. 13 THE CHAIR: Research with Healthy 14 Persons? 15 Children with -- oh, I'm sorry. Is 16 this Henry with Healthy Persons? 17 DR. STEVENSON: And probably Eli should 18 be on there, too. 19 THE CHAIR: The Children's sort of had 20 a committee, so -- 21 DR. THOMAS: And I probably want to be 22 on that one. 23 THE CHAIR: The Healthy Persons one? 24 Remember, that's where the atomic vets would end up 25 sitting. And Lois. 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 598 1 Children was already, Mary Ann and Pat 2 and Susan. Does everyone -- 3 Do you still have to stay there or, you 4 don't have to because you're -- 5 DR. LEDERER: Is this so we would be on 6 the mailing, list? 7 THE CHAIR: No, this is who's going to 8 get early stuff. And Mary Ann, do you want to stay 9 on it? 10 DR. STEVENSON: Yeah, for now I will. 11 THE CHAIR: Pardon? okay, and we'll 12 check with Pat, and hopefully she'll put herself on 13 for more, but we'll leave Pat on there for now since 14 she wasn't. 15 Radioisotope? Nancy. 16 (Whereupon, Dr. Royal and Dr. Oleinick 17 conferred, out of hearing of others, during which the 18 following occurred:) 19 THE CHAIR: Anybody else day-dreaming 20 want to wake up? It's a tough one. It's a big one. 21 We can leave it with the two of you, 22 but that's going to be a very big category, I would 23 think. 24 And Biodistribution. Henry? 25 Anybody else? 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 599 1 DR. STEVENSON: I mean, I'm interested 2 in both of those two. It's just I can't stretch. 3 THE CHAIR: Yeah, there's only so much 4 anybody can do. Anybody else want to work on 5 Biodistribution? I will put myself wherever there 6 are holes. 7 DR. MACKLIN: We also have three -- 8 THE CHAIR: We also have three people 9 who aren't here. 10 DR. MACKLIN: And don't forget, Reed 11 isn't here. 12 THE CHAIR: And Reed isn't here also. 13 I forgot. Why don't we say, we say this has to be 14 two people. We don't want it to be just one person. 15 In any case, and we'll see how people 16 who aren't here distribute themselves, and if there 17 are big holes I'll stick myself on big windows and 18 whatever else. We'll let, it go. 19 MS. NORRIS: Just put me on the first 20 one for information basis. 21 THE CHAIR: For information basis. 22 DR. THOMAS: And I'll talk about later 23 when Intentional Releases and we turn our thoughts. 24 THE CHAIR: Okay, so Duncan will come 25 later in the sub-case of Intentional Releases. 1-830-435-24068 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 600 1 And Ruth, T am sure you will not be 2 alone on that committee when our colleagues who 3 aren't here have a crack at making their, their 4 selections. 1 would obviously like to work on that, 5 but I'll also see where the other ones are. 6 So is this, this is, essentially what 7 we're doing is taking the Biomedical Subcommittee and 8 separating it out and reallocating people and 9 focusing in adding the case studies that would be a 10 different kind of case study. 11 The rest of these are all towards the 12 goal of helping the staff produce the sorts of 13 documents that will allow for committee discussion of 14 the sort that we sort of had on the plutonium ones, 15 that we hopefully will have richer such debates in 16 the future. 17 A couple of other issues on that, and 18 then I think we might even end early, which I don't 19 think anyone would object to, given how long a day 20 it's been. 21 I have been, I feel very badly about 22 bringing this up, but I am worried about whether we 23 have enough meeting time to do all the work that we 24 need to do, and I'm not suggesting at, more meetings, 25 but the possibility that a few meetings go a little 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 601 1 bit longer. Now, don't answer right away, but, three 2 hours longer. 3 MS. MASTROIANNI: We can do three 4 hours. 5 THE CHAIR: The concern is that more 6 and more we are going to have to have an active debate 7 as a committee, -- 8 DR. STEVENSON: Yes. 9 THE CHAIR: -- and the, the, the final 10 conclusions have to be made by the Committee as a 11 whole. The final interpretations and the final 12 conclusions cannot be made by subcommittee, and 13 cannot, so a lot of this work can, can be done, you 14 know, two people at a time, that's a subcommittee. 15 And that's fine, but the conclusions 16 and the final interpretations and the debate has to 17 be the whole committee. 18 So I'm not saying that we have to do 19 this starting in November, but I am concerned that, 20 particularly in the January, the February, March, 21 January-February-March period, that it may be hard 22 for us to do everything we need to do without adding 23 the half day to the meeting. 24 MS. MASTROIANNI: It would be 9:00 to 25 5:00, 9:00 to 5:00 instead of -- 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 602 1 DR. MACKLIN: That's okay, or even -- 2 DR. STEVENSON: Maybe 9:00 to 5:00 and 3 then 8:00 to --. 4 MS. MASTROIANNI; Right, 9:00 to 5:00, 5 and maybe to 5:00, so it's two full days. 6 THE CHAIR: At a minimum we can do 7 that. The inconvenience would be it means an extra 8 night over for we who are coming from a distance. 9 when you can't make a flight -- 10 DR. ROYAL: Well, actually it's fairly 11 easy to get to the West coast early in the, late in 12 the day. But the other way to extend it would be to 13 actually work really long on that first day, sort of 14 into the evening, 7:00 o'clock or something, make it 15 a marathon day. 16 DR. RUSSELL: You get lousy decisions. 17 DR. OLEINICK: But at a certain point, 18 you need to break at a certain point. You need to 19 break, and actually people are at their worst at 20 about ten hours. 21 THE CHAIR: So we can say, start at 22 8:30, go to 5:30, and maybe 9:00 to 6:00, and cut for 23 dinner, and next day go from 9:00 until 5:00. And 24 that would allow you to make it to the West Coast. 25 Are there 7:00 o'clock flights, too? 1-800-435-240'8 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 603 1 But anyway, we would make sure you people can do it. 2 And for people from the Midwest, often 3 deal is from, like Texas, there's like 6:30 4 flight to Dallas. It should be okay. 5 DR. OLEINICK: Yeah, it should be okay. 6 THE CHAIR: So that would be 7 acceptable? 8 DR. MACKLIN: Yeah. 9 THE CHAIR: And we would pick up 10 several good hours that way for additional 11 deliberation. And my hope is that we would be 12 spending more and more time for deliberation as 13 Committee around, obviously, these issues and, and 14 others. 15 DR. MACKLIN: Uh-huh. 16 THE CHAIR: That it? Did we do 17 everything we need to do? 18 Dan. 19 Normally at this time we look for Phil 20 Caplan, but -- 21 MR. GUTTMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. 22 THE CHAIR: I think we're done. 23 MR. GUTTMAN: Yeah. As the designated 24 federal official, I hereby declare this meeting 25 closed. 1-800-435-2463 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 604 1 THE CHAIR: Thank you all very much. 2 (Whereupon, at 10:37 a.m. PT, the above 3 hearing was adjourned.) 4 I certify the foregoing to be 5 a true transcript from my notes. 6 ___________________________________ 7 CSR, CP, RPR 8 9 CERTIFICATION 10 I, Dorothy I. Bunn, a Registered 11 Professional Reporter, Certified Shorthand Reporter, 12 and Notary Public, do hereby certify that the 13 foregoing testimony was duly taken and reduced to 14 writing before me at the place and time therein 15 mentioned. I further certify that I am neither 16 related to any of the parties by blood or marriage, 17 nor do I have any interest in the outcome of the 18 above matter. 19 In witness whereof, I have hereunto set 20 my hand and affixed my official seal, at Cincinnati, 21 Ohio, this 21st day of October, 1994. 22 ___________________________________ 23 Notary Public 24 My Commission expires November 7, 1995. 25 1-800-435-2468 BONN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 605 1 APPENDIX 2 ATTENDEES: 3 Ed Allen U.S. General Accounting Office Washington 4 Joseph E. Allen U.S. Department of Energy 5 UAK 6 Kathy Allen NARS, Father, Operation Crossroads 7 Mike Allen NARS; Father, Operation 8 Crossroads 9 Cherie Anderson Survivors Medical Radiation Experiment 10 Oscar Arvalo National Association of Atomic 11 Vets. 12 Joan Bailey DOI 13 Anne Basick 14 Ken Basida KPIX 15 Joanna Belligg Mother may have been experimentation 16 Anna Berge 17 John Beupro DOE 18 Audica Bindescif Neice Presse 19 Deetje Boler Speaking Up 20 Judy Brady Cancer Prevention Coalition 21 Nick Broderick U.S. Department of Energy 22 Oakland Operations Office 23 Harvey Brosler U.S. Department of Energy Oakland Operations Office 24 25 1-800-435-2468 BONN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 606 1 APPENDIX (Continued) 2 ATTENDEES (Continued): 3 Pat Carey 799 Oak Street, Nbr. 201 4 San Francisco, California 94117 Andria Carmen International Indian Treaty Council 7 Necia Cooper LANL 8 Keay Davidson San Francisco Examiner 9 Nick DeGennaro A-bomb survivor 10 John DelGuardo U.S. Department of Energy 11 Dennis Dumralski Albuquerque Tribune 12 John Dupre, M.D. UAPD 13 David Ewing Swords to Plowshares 14 Dan Fahey Swords to Plowshares 15 Grif Fariello 16 Stephanie Fragel Physicians for Social Responsibility 17 David George U.S. Navy 18 Anna Gianulias LBL 19 Joan M. Gibson University of New Mexico 20 Antonis Gonzales International Indian Treaty 21 Council 22 Bev Gross U.S. Department of Energy Los Alamos National Lab 23 Joan Harley Military veteran 24 Geri Hanele Friends of Hiborkush 25 1-800-435-24063 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 607 1 APPENDIX (Continued) 2 ATTENDEES (Continued): 3 Wendell Harden KPTU 4 Lori Hepner Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory 5 6 Jim Heutchy Milton Holloway NAAV 7 Karen Holmes LBL/DOE Research 8 Jo Huddlesten Bay City News Service 9 Eric Jansen KQED Radio 10 Ralph Kopenhaver U.S. Department of Energy 11 Roberto Landazin LRL 12 Virginia Lauren 13 Margot Lederer 14 Greg Lion KROA-TV 15 Sherri Lozon Nez Perce Tribe 16 Lapwai, Idaho 17 Pab Lynch NARS 18 Mary Manning Las Vegas Sun Newspaper 19 Len Materman University of California/ Berkeley 20 Masako Matsuzaku Hanford human radiation victim 21 Karl Mendenhall U.S. Navy 22 Shelley Mennelle RECE 23 Jenni Morozumi Friends of Hibakusha 24 (A-bomb survivors) 25 Andy Mugnier LBL 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 608 1 APPENDIX (Continued) 2 ATTENDEES (Continued): 3 Joe Nardella Sacto, Cal 4 SOMRE 5 James Paul House Science Committee 6 Amy Perez U.S. Department of the Interior 7 Katy Raddatz San Francisco Examiner 8 Tish Rivera KGO-TV 9 Daniel Saks 10 Michele Simon Law Student/Hastings 11 Lea Smyth San Francisco Chronicle 12 Susan E. Starch Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory 13 Maynard Stevenson Stevenson Engineering 14 Shirley Stevenson Stevenson Engineering 15 Todd Stintlen University of California/ 16 Berkeley 17 Yvinne Swan International Indian Treaty Council 18 Israel Torres, Jr. Veteran 19 Chris Vaughan University of California/ 20 San Francisco 21 Joel Ventresra SFT 22 Susan Ward Downwinder/Hanford 23 JoAnne Watts Treatment, 1944 24 Robert Weinmann Nightletter for American Medicine 25 San Jose 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733 Human Radiation Experiments/SF 609 1 APPENDIX (Continued) 2 ATTENDEES (Continued): 3 Forrester Willen NATSS 4 I. Woodaul University of California 5 Daun L. Zimmerman Pacific Northwest Laboratory 6 Linda Zubowski Brown, Monzione, et al 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1-800-435-2468 BUNN & ASSOCIATES FX 307-436-5733