Shafiq Rasul

Detainee #086

Shafiq Rasul, a plaintiff in what would become a landmark Supreme Court decision, Rasul v Bush, was born in Britain to parents who had emigrated from Pakistan. In 2001, he and two friends from London traveled to Pakistan for a marriage that had been arranged by the parents of one of them. Late that year, they were turned over to U.S. forces by a notorious Afghan warlord, Rashid Dostrum. Dubbed the "Tipton Three," after the London neighborhood where they lived, they were first interrogated at the prison camp set up by American forces at Kandahar before being sent to Guantanamo. In March 2004, just months before the Supreme Court ruling, they were returned to England where, within 36 hours, British authorities released them without charge. In the aftermath of the revelations of the abuse at Abu Ghraib, the three wrote and released a detailed affidavit describing their treatment while in U.S. custody.

Shafiq Rasul on...

Interview: October 22, 2007
Edited Transcript

When you were turned over to US custody, what happened to you?

We were transferred from Sherbegan Prison, which is near Mazar-e Sharif, to the facility that they had set up in Kandahar. And it was really difficult for us, because for a start, we didn't know where we were. We didn't know what was going on. We were just taken, thrown on the back of a plane, had sacks put over our heads so we couldn't see anything. And being on the flight taking us there, being constantly beaten by the soldiers, then when the plane landed, dragged off the plane. And we were taken to a makeshift tent, which we were constantly beaten there again while we were waiting to be "processed," as they used to call it. And at that time, as we were being processed, we were being interrogated at the same time, so it was just a lot of things going on at the same time. Just having fear as well. You didn't know what was going on. We didn't know if they were going to kill us or what was going to happen. It was really, really, really scary for us.

You thought they might kill you?

There were a lot of soldiers who said they kept shouting things like we were the ones responsible for 9/11. We killed members of their family, and they were going to take their revenge out on us. And they had rifles in their hand and they could have shot us at any time.

Even when you were being interrogated they had rifles?

Yeah. They would take us into interrogation. They would basically make us sit on the floor, our feet chained together, hands were chained behind our back. And as we were being interrogated, the entrance to our right, there would be a soldier sitting there with a gun in his hand, and the interrogator saying that, "If you move, this sergeant will shoot you." And that's just the beginning of the interrogation.

I've seen video footage of lot of prisoners that are shackled, outside, kneeled down.

That was initially when we arrived in Guantanamo. They took us off the plane and took us into Camp X-Ray, and we were basically made to sit there for about, I think it was about four hours in the heat, and we weren't allowed to move. And sergeants would come and kick us and punch us, and dogs barking right in our faces. And just -- that was really, really difficult, because we didn't know where we had been taken. We just knew that it was a very long plane flight, that we arrived somewhere hot, and they had taken us off a plane. And thrown us on some gravel, and we were just sitting there thinking, "What's the hell's going on here?"

I'm going to go back to Afghanistan a little bit before we get -- go to Guantanamo. You said that sometimes you had a sack over your head. Why were they putting sacks over your head?

I don't know. As soon as we were handed over to the US military, they tied our hands behind our back and put sacks over our heads, which those sacks stayed on our heads until we reached Kandahar from Sherbegan on the plane all the time. We couldn't see what was going on. We couldn't see anything around. We didn't know where they were taken us. We didn't know what was happening. I think they were trying to disorientate us. That was the main thing.

The soldiers were left to do whatever they wanted with us. The Red Cross came and they couldn't really do anything. They gave us Korans in our cells. And basically, the soldiers would come into our cells. We told them that the Koran is our holy book here; don't throw it on the floor. And they'd come purposely, come into our cells, pick up the Korans, and throw them into -- there was a place where you used to urinate, into there on purpose. And if we spoke out, they'd come running with their rifles and start pointing them at us. So we were in a situation we had no control over anything.

In Kandahar, we weren't allowed to talk to each other. If we were found talking to each other, they'd take us out in the heat and make us stand there for hours. And just made it real difficult for us, because we weren't getting any amount of -- we were getting small amount of food there, and not enough water. It was really difficult for us. So we were in a situation where we had no control over anything.

Tell me about the beginning of what then became the flight to Guantanamo.

We were basically in our cells in Kandahar, and in the middle of the night, two soldiers came and they were shouting my number, which was 78 at the time. And they said come outside your cell. They basically took me out and put a sack over my head, and they marched me with a gun pointed at me, because I could feel the gun at the back of my head, and they marched me back 200 meters into a different part of the camp, and basically, we slept the night there, and in the morning, they came and took us and -- they told us that we're going somewhere warm. That's all they said to us. They took us into this tent; they took all our clothes off, shaved our beards, shaved our heads, took us into a different tent, and gave us an orange uniform to wear.

Before they gave us the uniform, while we were naked, they took pictures. I don't know if they were face shots, but there was a guy standing in front of us with a camera, and he took pictures of us. And they gave us the orange uniform to wear, and they put gloves on our hands, taped the gloves to our hands so we couldn't take them off, and they put handcuffs on around our waist, down to our feet, shackled our feet together, and basically took us outside and made to sit on the floor which was for about five or six hours. We were just sitting there. Then it was nighttime, I'm not too sure what time, but they stood us all up and they put a rope around everybody's arm, and this guy in front just pulled the rope, and he marched us to the plane. We were put on to the plane, and shackled to the floor. And I think it was about a half an hour later, the plane took off.

I've seen the video. People were falling as they were roped together?

Yeah, because your face is covered. They didn't put sacks over our heads. They put these goggles on so you can't see through. And basically put this rope around our arm. I don't know how many, there must have been over six or seven people in one row, all their arms tied together with this rope, and basically marching us in one direction. And you don't know which -- where you're stepping, and you collide into the person in front of you or the person behind you hits you, and you fall over, and that causes everyone else to fall over. The soldiers would just grab you and pick you up and basically drag you to the plane.

They made us feel -- from day one, they made us feel like animals. They never made us feel like humans, never.

They humiliated us. What they did, they took us into one tent. There ripped our clothes off. Then they took us outside. It was about 60 or 70 meters, the other tent, and there was numerous amounts of soldiers there, male and female. They made us walk past while we were still naked, and that was just to humiliate us. There was no reason for it, other than that.

Cavity searches? They did before they put us on to the plane, before they actually shackled us. And when we arrived in Guantanamo, they did it again, and I don't understand why they did that for. That was just to humiliate us again.

How would you have put anything in your body.

Well, as soon as they did the cavity searching in Kandahar, about ten seconds later, they shackled and put handcuffs on our hands. And they knew this all along, all the time. And when we used to ask them while we were in Guantanamo, why do you do this, and they said we have no record of this happening.

So when you were on the plane.

We had those earmuffs on, the ones you cannot hear anything, and they put face masks over our heads as well.

So every sense that you had, sight, hearing, was blocked.

Yeah. And we had to sit in one position. We couldn't move. If we tried to stretch our legs in front of us, which we could do by ten or 15 centimeters they'd come and kick your legs back. So we weren't allowed to move or anything. It was very difficult, because we were sitting on -- it felt like wooden planks, and sitting on there for about two hours causes a lot of pain. We were on there for hours and hours, and we were in constant pain all the way through. Nobody was taking us to the toilet, and you needed to go, so the only thing you could do is do it on yourself.

I don't know how I did it. Looking back at it, I can't -- I don't know how I did it, but it just -- something from inside just helped me get through that flight. But all I can remember is the constant pain I was going through.

Just pain, because we were sitting in one position, and hands are tied together, and the handcuffs that they put on, they put them on really tight, so you'd lose feeling in your hand, and if you tried to move your wrist, they'd start digging into your wrist as well. And it was really difficult, just to sit there and having the shackles around your feet. And at the same time, not knowing what's going on, not knowing where you're going to be taken, and what the future holds. What's going to happen? That was -- all that was just unbearable at the time.

Their excuse for that was we believe that you are hard-core terrorists, and we have to do as much as we can to restrain you.

When you get to Guantanamo, you've already talked a little bit about it. You knew you were somewhere hot. I know that at some point, someone lifted your earmuff and spoke to you.

It was when we arrived in Guantanamo; we were sitting in one position. It was really hot there, and as I was sweating, the sweat was going into my eyes, and my eyes started burning, and I shouted, "My eyes are burning, my eyes are burning." And I think two soldiers came over to me and said, "This guy speaks English." And another soldier came over and he kicked me in the back, and he said, "Traitor. You're British and you're supposed to be on our side." And at that moment, I thought to myself, I'm not going to speak English now. I'm going to just keep my mouth shut.

Were you first put into outdoor cages?

Yeah. In Camp X-Ray.

Those photographs I've seen of all of those people in the orange outfits, that's where you were at the beginning?

Yeah. That's where we were taken. We were taken, I think -- Camp X-Ray was open on the 10th of January, and I think we were taken there on the 15th.

Soldiers constantly not letting you sleep, waking you up all the time, not letting you lie down. Making you sit in one position in your cell. And just being -- not knowing what's going on. It was really difficult for us, and 48 hours after we first arrived in Guantanamo, the British came to see us, and basically they interrogated us. We told them everything that happened, and I think it was the MI5 guy who said to us that, "Everything you told us is lies, and you'll never come back to the UK." Even from your own government, and then you start losing hope. You're going to be spending the rest of your life here.

Did you still think it was possible that they might kill you?

There was interrogators who used to say nobody knows you're here. We can do whatever we want. We can take you from here, take you to another place. We can kill you; we can do whatever we want. And nobody will know about it. So we didn't know what was going on in the outside world. We didn't get any news of what's happening with our families. So we just believed everything that they used to say to us.

What was the relationship between how the soldiers treated you, the military police, and the interrogators?

The soldiers were treating us badly because they used to say that they were the ones responsible for 9/11, and they just hated us. The interrogators, they tried to be nice to you, but on the other hand, they'd be threatening you as well in your interrogations. They'd say if you don't admit to being a member of al Qaeda, if you don't admit to meeting Osama bin Laden, that if you -- if you don't care what happens to yourself, we can do whatever we want to your family, we can deport them back to their home countries, Pakistan, and the Pakistani government can do whatever they want. And being in that situation, we don't know if they're lying or telling the truth. And that was difficult for us. The soldiers would threaten us and do whatever they want to us, and the interrogators in the beginning, they would threaten our families.

In that situation, you stop thinking about yourself, and you are thinking about what's going to happen to the family. Because we don't know what's happening. We don't know if they've been arrested. We don't know if they've been interrogated by the police or what's happening. So you're constantly thinking about their safety, what's happening to them.

Did you think the way you were sometimes treated in the cells was to soften you up for the interrogations?

Not in the beginning, no. I don't think so. It was just -- it was -- we would have not -- towards the end, we would know when we were going to get interrogated, but in the beginning, we would never know when we were going to get interrogated. The sergeants would come just out of the blue and basically take you out of your cell. And what they used to do in the beginning, they used to have races. They used to time how long it takes these two soldiers to take someone to interrogation. Which is about 2 -- 250 meters away from where we were being kept. And basically they would be running, and they'd be dragging you, because our feet were chained together. And it was impossible for us to keep up with them.

And we had to keep our heads down all the time. We couldn't see where we were going. And they were basically dragging you, and getting you into interrogation. And your ankles would be ripped open, and the interrogator would say, oh, sorry, it's the mistake of the soldiers. They didn't mean to do that. And try to be nice with you. And then like five minutes later, start threatening you and threatening your family. And basically, after all that, then -- while we were being interrogated, they would bring in soldiers with their guns, just like he'd causally stroll in. It seemed like he's being told to come in at this time. How it seemed to me, he'd come into the room, just walk around and go back out. It just seemed like he was trying to intimidate me.

So the soldiers would have races to see who could get --


They used to laugh, because we understand everything that they were saying, when they'd come to pick up any of the detainees, and they'd say so and so did it in 59 seconds, we've got to beat this. And they'd basically just take you out. As soon as they put the shackles on, that's it. There is no way you're going to keep up with their pace. They just basically drag you there.

You were not allowed to look up?

No, we were not allowed to look up. If you did, what they'd do, they'd put the elbows in the back of our necks to keep our heads down.


I don't know. Because they'd say that we're looking around. We could found escape routes, and we can plan things in our cells, when we've got nothing in our cells. Planning to escape, planning to kill soldiers. Which is ridiculous.

What about when General Miller came?

That was the worst time, being in Guantanamo, when he came. We started getting punished for minor things, just like if they found out we had an extra towel in our cells, we'd be taken out of our cell, put into solitary confinement for three days, sometimes a week, sometimes two weeks, just for minor things like that. And just -- it just made the situation worse, even interrogation. It was just becoming a lot harder for us. We were being taken in interrogation so much -- even being taken into interrogation, not being interrogated, just left in the room for hours and hours. And not knowing what's happening.

Then they started bringing in the level system, that you had to -- level one you get everything, level two you get slightly less, and it went down to level four where you have basically nothing in your cell. And a lot more interrogation was going on during that time when General Miller was there, and there was a lot more punishments happening to detainees. There was so much more that was happening, as soon as he came. It was a really, really difficult time for us while he was there.

You said you'd be left in a room, an interrogation room alone.

We were basically shackled to the floor sitting in like this, shackled to the floor, and just sitting there for hours and hours, and thinking what's going on; and because they've got AC in those rooms, they used to turn it down really low, and you'd be sitting there freezing. And sometimes a sergeant would come in and say, oh, we're waiting for the interrogator to come. Which you knew they were lying. They made you sit there for hours and hours. And it was like a two-way mirror, to our right, that you could see those people standing there. You couldn't make out the faces or who they were, but you could see outlines of them. And I just felt like they're just making you sit in there for hours and hours.

They would take us into interrogation, basically just short shackle us to the floor, leave us there for hours, and basically come back about four, five, six hours later and take us back into our cells. Then I was taken into interrogation one day, and there was two people there. And as the interrogation was going on, a female came into the room. She said this woman has come specially from Washington to see you. She's got a video to show you. And basically, it was the video of those stills. They showed me the video, and they said these three people are you and your two friends. I said, "No, that's not me." They said, "Listen, I can put you into isolation for a month. I can put you into isolation for a year. I can put you in for two years. Eventually you'll break and tell me it's you." Okay. I said, "If you want me to lie and say it's me, yeah, then it's me." She said, "No, I don't want you to lie." I said, "It's not me. Why don't you believe me? Why don't you just contact the British government, and they'll confirm it for you?"

That went on for three months. They kept me in isolation for three months, constantly being interrogated. Same thing going on over and over and other again. And then after three months, one day we were taken out and put back into the regular blocks. And I think it was a week or two later, the British came to see us. And they basically told the American military that these guys, according to our records, were in the UK at this time of this video, and -- but they could have traveled on false passports. So they're trying to help us and making the situation worse.

And before that happened, there was an incident when the FBI interrogated me, and what they had done is they had stills, but they had it blanked out at the bottom. It was obviously the date. And I said, "Well what's the date?" They said, "I can't tell you that." I said, "Why don't you show me the date? And I can tell you where I was on that date." And he said, "No, I can't show it to you." I said, "That looks like you're trying to screw me." He said, "Maybe I am."

Eventually we found out the date. It was -- I think it was 1/8/2000. They didn't know if it was the first of August or the eighth of January. But it didn't make any difference, I was at the university at that time anyway, and I was working. I had an alibi for both dates, anyway. But they weren't prepared to listen to that. They just wanted to put these accusation on that, they've caught these British guys, and they're members of al Qaeda, and they found the ones responsible for 9/11. That's -- they had that mindset, and that's what they wanted to keep.

Can you describe to me what isolation is like? What goes through your head when you're in solitary confinement for three months?

Basically it's a room, same size as a regular cell, but it's closed off so you can't see anything. All you've got the about a four inch by four inch mirror at the front, which they can block off anyway, so you can't see anything that's going on outside. And it's sound proofed as well, so you can't talk to the person next to you. And you're in that room, and you've got nothing -- you can't talk to nothing, you can't see nothing. And during the day it gets really, really hot in there, and during the night it gets really, really cold.

And basically, you just sit in there, just thinking and thinking and thinking. You've got nothing to do. You can't keep yourself busy. There is no way you can keep yourself busy, even if you try to. And you're just thinking what's going to happen, and -- because those interrogations are going on and you're accused of being members of al Qaeda. They started playing -- what if we spend the rest of our lives here, are we going to get to see our families again. What's going to happen? So you -- slowly, slowly, you feel like you're going crazy.

During the day, it used to reach about 100 degrees Fahrenheit in that cell. You'd be sweating so much. And they were connected to AC units as well, so they could put the AC on any time. The only time they used to put it on was at night, when we didn't need it on. And it would be freezing in there, and you had nothing to cover yourself with. And we'd have to sleep on the metal floor. Nothing to cover ourselves, just the T-shirt we were wearing on our back, and you'd feel the cold going through your body.

Did they keep lights on all the time?

Yeah. All the time. I think there was one day that one of the sergeants turned the lights off, that we had slept with the lights on during the whole two and a half years that we were there. And they were making it difficult for us, because in the beginning, the cells were on the outside of the regular blocks, and they didn't really affect us. We could like cover our faces and get sleep. But then later on, they started putting them insides the cells, which was difficult, because it was really, really bright. And even if you did cover your face, you could still see the light coming through.

And another thing, if you did cover your face, sergeants would wake you up and tell you to uncover your face. And it was really, really difficult. They were just making it worse, and worse and worse. Because what happens is they treat you bad on one level, and after a certain amount of time you get used to it, and then what they think, these guys are used to it, it's not affecting them, and they start making it worse, and worse, and worse.

You wrote about one occasion when a prisoner came back and he was very upset, maybe even crying?

Yeah. I think he was one of the younger ones. He must have been about 18 or 19, and he came back from interrogation, and he was crying. And for a few days he didn't tell what happened to him, and then later we found out that they threatened to sodomize him in his interrogation, and it was things like that, threatening him, and really scared him.

Once he started talking about it.

They were mainly the Arabs who were talking about it. They had -- this happened to us. They brought females into the interrogation and trying to like basically -- just like coming up to them and touching them all over, and just like making them feel unease. And even not just females. Male interrogators as well, just touching them, just making them feel like if they don't answer the question, give them the answer that they want, anything could happen to them. And there was one occasion when one of the detainees was taken into interrogation. The interrogator threw the Koran on the floor, put his foot on it, and his hands were tied together, his feet were chained to the floor. And he said see, what can you do now? I can do whatever I want to and you can't do anything. I'm standing on your Koran, what are you going to do?

Explain to me what ERF means, and what happened.

It means extreme reaction force where five or six soldiers come with the full protective gear on, and basically rush into your cell, grab you, pin you to the floor, and basically you get beaten by them, and dragged out of your cell, and they'd search you and take you into isolation, depending on what the -- the interrogator or who was in charge of the block says. And that used to happen so many times. And for reasons that were just ridiculous.

They'd say that you've got three towels in your cell. They'd take you out of your cell. The ERF team would come take you out of your cell, put you in to the rec area and they started shaving the beards of people, just because you had an extra towel in your cell, or you had something that you weren't allowed. And it was just like making us feel like animals. We were never made to feel like humans. Even going into interrogation, when the interrogator would say to you, we are here to help you. When you know he's not there to help you. And constantly like they'd never call you by your name. You'd also be called by your number. Or your cell number. Just things like that, make you feel like animal all the time.

What was your number?

Mine was 086.

Tell me about the time that you saw Jumah al-Dossari ERF-ed.

That was the second time I saw someone being ERF-ed, Jumah al Dossari. He wasn't mentally well. He used to shout all the time. And doctors used to see him, come and see him because of that. And he used to be complaining that he's not feeling well, and doctors used to come and see him for that. On one occasion, he was just shouting, as he normally does. And the camp commander came onto the block, and he was just shouting at one particular female soldier, which -- we were used to it, because it used to happen on a daily basis. Everyone else was used to it, all the sergeants were used to it.

And the camp commander came on the block, and told the ERF team to come, and the ERF team before that, comprised of five soldiers, never more than five, on this occasion it was eight soldiers. And basically what they are supposed to do, if you're resisting to get on the floor, then they'll force you down. Well, Jumah, he was already on the floor. He had his hands behind his head ready to be cuffed. What happened was the camp commander, he was psyching the soldiers up, saying to them, soon, Jumah, we open the door, and you're going to go in and do what you have to do.

And there was three British guys in that block, myself, one is Feroz Abassi and one is Asif Iqbal. And we could hear what he was saying to him and we were saying, "You can't do that." And he would just like -- he had a camcorder in his hand. He was filming everything that was going on. And he just looked at me. He smiled. They opened the door, they ran in, the first soldier, he must have been about 6'4", must have been about 280 pounds at least. He ran in and he just did a knee drop on the back of -- just below his neck. And Jumah just let out a scream, and then he went quiet. And we thought that he was dead. Then the other soldiers -- the other seven went in and started kicking and punching him. Although he wasn't even resisting or anything, they should have just cuffed has hands together and taken him away. They started beating him so badly, kicking and punching him.

Then the camp commander was filming the whole thing, and we started shouting and they started filming us, and we were saying to him, "What are you doing? This is wrong." And he just kept laughing and carrying on, filming what was going on. Then about five minutes later, some of the soldiers came, picked Jumah up, and took him away. There was an ambulance waiting. They put him into the ambulance, and I think they took him to the hospital.

There was loads of blood on the floor, and within minutes, they came with a hose and hosed it all there. And two days later, we were moved -- it was two days before we were moved to Camp Delta, when this incident happened. We were moved to Camp Delta. We saw Red Cross that day, and we told them what happened. And they said that there is no video of it, it was never filmed. And it was Jumah was resisting, that's why he got beaten. I seen it clearly. He did not resist. When you see eight soldiers coming into your cell, it doesn't matter how big you are, you're not going to resist that.

He hadn't done nothing wrong. It was like out of the blue, it had been happening for the last three months.

We were tortured, we were beaten, we were taken in interrogation, put in stress positions. We were left there for hours. We had dogs barking in our faces. We were beaten by soldiers who had -- don't know if it was a personal attack again us or they were taught to do it, but definitely we were tortured. And when people say that it doesn't constitute as torture that just makes me boil even more.


Because what does constitute as torture? I was beaten, not by one soldier, by numerous soldiers. And put into stress positions, and having all this stress put on me, and end of the day, it's not called torture? That's just makes me angry.

How do you feel when you hear the president of the United States say that the United States doesn't torture?

It makes me angry and all that I've been through, and I just want him to go through what I went through, and say it's not torture. If he can turn around and say it's not torture, then fair enough. I'll say it's not torture.

What was worse, physical abuse or psychological abuse?

The psychological was a lot worse. Physical abuse -- I've had fights when I was younger. Physical abuse, I can take it to some extent. But psychological, it just breaks you. And if it's not what they'd say to us, it didn't affect it that much. It was more when they'd start putting other people, like your family, because in that situation, you don't know what's going on. That just made it a lot worse, what's going to happen to them. And constantly, you'd be thinking about the family.

There was numerous prisoners who tried to hang themselves, they couldn't take it no more.

You said once about some people -- you could tell when a line had been crossed by looking in their eyes.

Yeah, you'd see them, and in the beginning, when you'd be with them, they were okay. But slowly, after time, after being to interrogation numerous times, they'd stop talking to you, and you wouldn't know what's going on. You wouldn't know what's happening in the interrogations. And slowly and slowly, you could see them breaking. And they'd go to the extent where they'd try to hurt themselves or try to hang themselves. And just seeing someone try to hang themselves, it's not a nice sight. I seen it on a few occasions, and that made me more determined that I'm not going to go down that road.

It seems like it was an experiment. On what, I'm not 100 percent sure, but it's just like, they put us this in place. They've got all control over everything that happens to us, and we have no control over anything. We have no communication with the outside world. And just to see maybe to what extent they can take a human -- that's how it felt. It didn't feel like we were taken there because we were the ones responsible for 9/11. They knew that from day one. We had nothing to do with 9/11. It just felt like they were just keeping us here, maybe just to show the world that they've caught the ones responsible and show them yeah, these people are the worst of the worst.

Do you have flashbacks?

It's just constantly thinking about the people that are still there, because you make connections with a lot of people. If you're next to someone for about six months, all you do is talk about your personal life and just getting released and what you're going to do, and we'd always talk about when we get released, we're going to meet up and -- just knowing that they're still there is really hard for us. And there is people, even British residents, that you -- sitting home thinking that why have I been released and he's still there? He's got family, he's got kids, and he's still there suffering. At that time -- I'm not married, and I've got no kids. And he should have been released because he's got kids at home.

You go in a young man, when you're arrested. You're interrogated numerous occasions. You don't know what's happening on the outside world. You can't even find your family to hear their voices. And you're in constant fear and thinking about what's going to happen. Of course it's going to make you an old man.

Do you feel like an old man some days?

Of course, because I've got pain in my back, I've got pain in my knees from sleeping on the metal, which stops me from -- I can't even football no more. I can't even run that far. Because of what -- because of being in those cells. And it makes me feel like an old man. I want to do things which I can't do any more.

When the photos from Abu Ghraib became public, you and your friends, the three of you, decided you couldn't stay quiet anymore. Why?

Because it was the whole world was shocked at seeing what happened, and it had been happening in Guantanamo for the last two and a half years when we were there. And so we had to say something, because Miller was running Guantanamo, and he went to Iraq and exactly the same is happening there. And we had to speak out about it.