JM: OK. one of the ways the Soviet intelligence penetrated our government, so to speak was through the use of illegals. that is a term that they used and that we used in our work. An illegal agent in the minds of an intelligence operation would be a person that has no official status with the government that he represents. He is a national, for instance, of the Soviet Uni. he is trained in the Soviet Union. He is dispatched by the Soviet Union in an illegal manner. He enters the target country with false documents, under a different name, and then thereafter establishes himself as a legal citizen within the country he's operating with by getting a job, by getting documentation through drivers' licenses, library cards and anything else that will make him look legal., the Soviets used this to a great extent that we became aware of, even before the Polyakov case. for instance, we had information obtained from a source, a very sensitive source of the CIA that the Soviet GRU had targeted two illegals to come to the United States. It turned out that they came separately, the male half of this illegal entered the United States probably a year prior to 1957, at least we can back-track it that far. in 1957, the female half of this illegal was dispatched by the Soviet government and the CIA source told us about that, even to the point of when she would arrive and under what identity she would arrive., we covered that because it was our responsibility, the FBI, to cover intelligence within our borders and we observed her enter. she came in under one name, which I think was the name of Mary Grodnik, G r o d n i k, we followed her. She established a residence in a hotel in Lower Manhattan, we kept coverage on her and about the third day she was there, she disappeared. Well, this was very embarrassing to the FBI. we must have had fifty agents working on that case from the inception of it when she entered at Kennedy, to the point where she took up residence in the hotel. Anyway, we went looking for her. In effect, we actually went out looking for her and there must have been at least two hundred agents that were given assignments to find her, by checking hotels, checking all kinds of residences, logical residences and by a stroke of luck, one agent came up with her. She had registered into another hotel in a different part of Manhattan under the name of Florence Grochovska , it was a Polish name, and the reason that we were able to identify her was that this particular agent put all the facts together,... description wise and photograph wise which we had taken of her when she entered and identified her. it turned out that we followed her to a meeting in Yonkers New York where she met the male half of this illegal situation. His name, which he was using at the time, was Walter Soja, S o j a. they met, they got on the subway, went down to Times Square area, socialized in a tavern down there and eventually we followed them to his residence, which was just off of Times Square. he was living with an émigré, a Russian émigré type at the time and it turned out after we [clears throat] conducted our investigation that he was employed in a book-keeping capacity for a firm in Lower Manhattan., they lived together after they met each other and we followed them extensively for a period of three or four months. It became so loose after that that apparently they got wind that we were on to them and they disappeared, separately. He went... took off for work one morning, we put him on the subway and we were supposed to pick him up at the other end where he was employed and he never showed up. We never saw hide nor hair of him after that. She disappeared separately by eluding our surveillance. It turned out later on that Polyakov, when we were discussing this matter or the matter of illegals, he said, I trained both of those people in Moscow, I dispatched them and when they returned to the Soviet Union after they were compromised, I int

INT: were illegals a problem for you? Were they quite a dangerous and difficult thing? I mean, they're living pretty much like ordinary people, aren't they, they're living an ordinary life, were they quite dangerous sort of...?

JM: They were no immediate danger to our...

INT: I don't mean those two, but I mean generally speaking were illegals...

JM: Generally speaking, the illegals in a peacetime atmosphere were of no danger. the danger was in them establishing themselves in the country and getting foothold into our society. it could turn out that, depending on their target, they could become employed for a sensitive private organization or a government private or... a government organization and then they would become a threat. However for the most part they were just told to lead a normal life, establish their identity and until war broke out and the diplomats were all sent back home, that was gonna be the basis for espionage in the country. so they were a real threat. There were several illegals - I can't go into details - that in fact did get themselves employed in sensitive positions and while they never matured to the point where they were passing this information back to the Soviets, because there was no hostilities between the Soviet Union and us, they didn't become a threat, but they had the possibility.

INT: That's very good.

JM: We recognized this within the FBI and a lot of our resources were [inaudible] that illegal activities and we had some success, even before Tophat, but when he turned over the whole... kettle of information, we had the whole thing in our hand and as it turned out, they had to operate in a different manner.

INT: I wanted to ask you something about the names, when he named the names, because I know that, you know, this is a sort of sensitive moral issue, shall we say, when you name names if you're an agent in a situation that Polyakov was in. He's named some names and that really means the end of those people's freedom probably. In the case of one...

JM: In the illegals field?

INT: No, I'm not on the illegals now, I'm talking about, say, those four guys you know, Dunlap and that lot, you know.

JM: Yeah, yeah, he did name names in those cases.

INT: I wanted to ask you about this process whereby you name names and then it's sort of... some people would say, who are not in the intelligence field, that this is a sort of slightly gray moral area, shall we say, that while those people are doing their jobs and what's the difference between Rick Ames naming names and Dmitri Polyakov naming names? Now I wanted to put that question to you.

JM: Well, it is a moral question. however, it's one that you have to weigh. If I was in Polyakov's shoes I would weigh the situation as to what my beliefs were. Were my beliefs with the Communist system or were my beliefs with helping the Americans to defeat the Communist system? and he wasn't doing it for money, he wasn't doing it because he was compromised. He was doing it as he felt that he was doing the right thing in his own mind. In the case of Ames, it was money, pure out money, greed you might say, and he knew, that is Ames knew, that those people he named who one of 'em whom was Polyakov, were gonna be eventually executed, that was the system, that was the Soviet system. and I think Ames has made the statement in some fashion or form that, well, it doesn't matter, they took the chance of doing this, so therefore they deserve to die. But in our country Ames didn't... he deserved to die, but he wasn't sentenced to death, he was sentenced to prison. So it's a different way of evaluating.

INT: How about the guy that committed suicide? Was there a problem with that one?

JM: Um, I don't know a lot about that case. I know, I think his name was Dunlap, he was interviewed by us and I guess he just couldn't face the consequences and he committed suicide. The circumstances surrounding that... by the time he did that, I was not in New York even at the time.

INT: Explain one other thing to us, which is we were talking about before. Just have another go, would you John, having explained to us this business with the New York Times, this message system. Just make sure our audience understands it, so keep it simple, how you did it.

JM: OK. [Clears throat] In regard to this message system in the New York Times, it was actually Polyakov who came up with the... ability to do this or the determination to do this. atthe time we were discussing how are we going to maintain with contact with you in the event of an emergency or whatever and he volunteered the fact that he had access to the New York Times in connection with his work in Moscow, or would have when he got back there...


JM: When it was apparent that we had to maintain contact with Polyakov, after he returned to the Soviet Union, we talked about all means of how we were going to do this and since he had turned down any personal contact and the use of drops and what not were a little cumbersome, Polyakov made the suggestion that he in fact would have access to the New York Times in connection with his work at the GRU and he suggested that we placed an ad in the Times that would be appropriate to single this, that or whatever. So, Polyakov came up with the idea that put it under the Personal Column, we will take up code names which will mean signal sites, we will take the code name that will mean a drop site and mesh that all together as a personal message using the code Donald F, the Donald F meaning his name was Dmitri Federovich Polyakov, so there was a D and an F and this was his means of identifying the ad in the Times. it worked, as it turned out, and actually I give Polyakov a lot of credit for coming up with something like that. And it's another indication of how well versed he was in the modus operandi, intelligence modus operandi. it was rather ingenious, I think.

INT: Could you read it to us, just be nice if you did. I put it in...


JM: The first message that we transmitted in this fashion in the New York Times was in this form. 'Moody Donald F...' - the Donald F was the signal that it was coming from us -'...please write as promised. Uncle Charles...' - now Charles was the signal site that we had agreed upon, I don't remember whether it was a telegraph pole or mail box or a wall, a stone wall or something, but a signal will be left with Uncle Charles, which would then generate him going to Sister Clara, which is said. Sister Clara was a drop site. Now this could be a rock, described as a rock, a message within it in a park, in a crevice in a wall, you name it. but that directed him to Sister Clara. We're telling him here Uncle Charles and Sister Clara are well, meaning that it's secure, and would like to hear from you, telling him to go ahead, check the signal site, thereafter put your message in there. Then we remind him of the other drops that he had been given. 'Don't forget the address, Dave and Doug...' - they were two more signal sites - '...and their spouses', those particular names I can't remember at the time, but they were counterparts of Dave and Doug. Then we asked the question here, we put the word 'travelling'. We wanted to know if he was going to be travelling out of the Soviet Union. He could interpret that from just reading the message here. When, where and to let us know. 'We hope for family reunion soon...' - meaning that if he did travel, I would make contact him wherever he went and we were hoping that that would occur. 'Regards and best wishes...' and this is just a pat back and '...thank you', the end of the message and it was signed Edward H, who happened to be Edward H Moody. He had to give his name because the New York Times would not accept anything unless it was legitimate, so we had to use his name and it was the brothers Edward H and John F - he knew me as John and we used my middle initial. We used a city of close to New Jersey, because that is where Moody lived and...

INT: Just tell me one last thing, which is just read it aloud, without... just read it as a passage as well.

JM: The message that we used in signaling Polyakov in the New York Times was as follows: 'Moody, Donald F, please write as promised. Uncle Charles and Sister Clara are well and would like to hear from you. Don't forget address, Dave, Doug and spouses. Travelling? When, where? We hope for family reunion soon. Regards and best wishes, brother Edward H and John F close to New Jersey.' this was put in the Times probably some time in early 1963. We didn't hear from him for many months after that.

INT: OK, that's fine, cut.